Nov. 21, 2025

Is Content Overload Killing Real Learning? Let's Find Out with Pardis Mahdavi

Is Content Overload Killing Real Learning? Let's Find Out with Pardis Mahdavi
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Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon iHeartRadio podcast player icon Podcast Addict podcast player icon Deezer podcast player icon
Season 1

We kick off nervous and end up in one of our boldest chats yet. Our guest, Pardis Mahdavi, has stared down traffickers, survived 33 days in detention, and spent 18 hours in a sealed shipping container with 31 women. She breaks down human trafficking, higher education, and resilience with honesty and sharp insight.

We dive into meditation, psychedelics for healing, and practical ways to build agency and make better choices.

Packed with wild stories, real talk, and life lessons, this episode will stick with you. Hit play, share with a friend, and leave a review.

00:00 - Cold Open And Interview Nerves

02:10 - What Anthropology Really Looks Like

03:35 - Dubai Fieldwork And Human Trafficking

06:40 - Beyond “Taken”: How Trafficking Actually Works

09:15 - Contractual Sterilization And Stateless Babies

12:20 - The Shipping Container Ordeal

14:10 - From Fieldwork To University Leadership

16:10 - Higher Ed’s Crisis And Student Suffering

19:20 - Meditation, States Of Mind, And Resilience

22:15 - Psychedelics 101: Chairlift Vs Hike

25:20 - Ibogaine: Addiction, PTSD, Brain Change

28:40 - Safe Use, Integration, And Intentions

31:10 - Community, Salons, And Learning Culture

33:05 - A Call To An Iranian Friend

35:20 - Iranian Culture, Warmth, And Poetry

37:10 - Horses, War Logistics, And Smuggling

39:30 - Turning Wild Lives Into Books And Films

41:20 - Writing Process And New Fiction Projects

44:00 - Mystery Schools, Powers, And Campus Drama

46:30 - Closing Reflections And Gratitude

WEBVTT

00:00:05.519 --> 00:00:06.879
Okay, so welcome to our podcast.

00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:13.519
This is a little bit different today because this podcast is a spin-off of our radio show.

00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:29.679
Hervous I am to interview you.

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I am.

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Are you kidding?

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No, I'm dead serious.

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Why?

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Because I made this mistake.

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I've said this, I've made this mistake a couple times on this podcast.

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Absolutely.

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Right?

00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:55.679
But I also like don't want to research because if I research and I feel like like I saw this interview with Larry King, and Larry King was like, you don't ever want to ask a question that you don't already know the answer to, which I think is silly.

00:00:56.399 --> 00:00:57.359
No offense, Larry King.

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May you rest in peace.

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But I want to like there's things about you that I don't know that I just want to come out.

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But it's like I could Google it.

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And then so but so I was driving here and I was talking to my sister.

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Yeah.

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And my sister's like, we talk quite a bit, and she's like one of the smartest women I know.

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She's just brilliant, smartest people I know.

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And I was telling her, Oh, I'm on the way to do a podcast.

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I was gonna go, who you interview?

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And I told her, and she's just on the phone, she starts Googling, and I'm like, What?

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Oh my god.

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And I'm like, I'm so out of my comfort zone talking to you.

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I'm so out of my intelligence bubble.

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No way.

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Yes.

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I don't know.

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So like I'm gonna say things that are probably gonna sound stupid.

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Because she goes, she goes, she goes, wait, uh uh at what what's your at ASU your title was when I oh I was Dean.

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Dean of uh social sciences.

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Oh, I thought she did anthropology or something.

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That too.

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Well, it was all I had 11 schools under me.

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So anthropology was one major in one school, but I had 11 schools under me.

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Oh wow.

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Yeah.

00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:58.079
Well, I was just like, I think that's a clothing store.

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It's also a clothing store.

00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:04.719
I wonder quite easy, where's anthropology since you're like the dean of anthropology?

00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:05.200
Yeah.

00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:10.879
My PhD is in medical anthropology, which sounds super esoteric, but it's a lot more fun than it sounds.

00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:17.199
See, just talking to someone that uses the word esoteric clearly like that is a little uh but okay.

00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:17.840
So wait.

00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:24.000
So if you if you studied anthropology, that's like if all kidding aside, that's like uh humankind, right?

00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:31.280
That's like uh Yeah, it's sort of the study of of people and cultures and you know why people do the things that they do.

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So it's so funny though, when I say anthropology, people immediately want to think Indiana Jones.

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Indiana Jones.

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Right.

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And I'm like, okay, no, that's archaeology.

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I'm like, think James Bond.

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Like James Bond.

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We end up in strange, like I have ended up in a shipping locked in a shipping container in a port off the coast of Dubai with a bunch of trafficked women, actually, and three dead bodies, you know, or I found myself in Madagascar, you know, trying to get repatriate 47 Malagasy women, get them home with their babies in time for Christmas.

00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:11.520
So, you know, we end up in these wild places.

00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:14.560
I ended up in Rappa Nui, which is Easter Island.

00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:21.120
Uh, but Rappa Nui is what um the the the islanders call it's a tiny island off the coast of Chile.

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It's where the big heads are, you know.

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That's Rapanui.

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So I ended up there.

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That's why I say think James Bond.

00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:29.919
But it's also that's got a hint of Indiana Jones.

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It does.

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Traveling all over.

00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:36.000
I mean, you're in Easter Island, there's the whole archaeology of the statues, where they came from, who put them there.

00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:36.639
That's true.

00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:38.560
But can we get to the shipping container?

00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:39.520
You just kind of go over that.

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What's this?

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Just throw that out there.

00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:41.439
Well, yeah, yeah.

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How are you in a shipping container with people?

00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:45.919
Like, what's that background of that story?

00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:48.560
So I've written 10 books.

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Um, after my first book, which was on Iran, it was on sexual revolution in Iran.

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That's a whole story.

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I got pulled off stage.

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I got, you know, kicked out of my home country.

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So then I shifted my field site to Dubai and I was working on trafficking in Dubai, human trafficking.

00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:20.240
Um, I initially had gone to Dubai because I was following Iranian sex workers uh who would go to Dubai for three months a year and make just more money in three months than I have ever made in my career in the sex industry.

00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:21.759
So I started following them.

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But of course, I got to Dubai, and the thing that that was most noticeable to me was that there were people, men, literally in chains, like actual chains, you know, because they would bring them in to build these huge skyscrapers, primarily men from India, actually, Carolina.

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Um, and I was like, this is nuts.

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And, you know, when I look at the definition as an anthropologist, when I look at the definition of human trafficking, it's force, fraud, or coercion.

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And I'm like, you know, there are a lot of men being trafficked here in Dubai and women being trafficked into the domestic work industry.

00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:05.920
On the other hand, a lot of the women in the sex industry are saying that they are coming there to make a living.

00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:08.959
Now, back then, this was like 2007.

00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:11.040
Me saying this was very controversial.

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I'm like, you know, men can be trafficked, and people are like, men aren't trafficked.

00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:18.319
And I'm like, these men are definitely forced, frauded, coerced.

00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:21.839
They are definitely told that they're gonna come make a certain income.

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They're definitely told thinking they're gonna come do a certain job.

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And then they arrive in in Dubai and they're working 36-hour shifts in 125-degree weather.

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Us Phoenicians can relate to that.

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They're outside working these long shifts, and they live in these labor camps, John Jay.

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And then these labor camps were just, I mean, really, really sad situations.

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So I started writing about that, and I was writing about women being trafficked into the domestic work industry.

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And to write these books, though, I had to interview traffickers.

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I had to get myself smuggled, basically, to see what it was like.

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And so I was following a particular trafficking ring that was trafficking women from India.

00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:06.160
So you went undercover?

00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:07.839
Pretty much, yeah, to write the book.

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As a like as a sex worker?

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Um, I was just like, hey, what's this like?

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What's this experience like?

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Tell me about it.

00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:18.959
Uh and uh and what happened?

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Well, I found myself in a because I was trying to figure out how and why people were continuing to come to Dubai after so much abuse had been taken place.

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Because Dubai in 2007 is way different than Dubai right now.

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Correct.

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Because everything I see about Dubai right now is amazing.

00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:38.000
But then again, that's probably what they want you to see, right?

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Because I know I have friends that are there right now, as a matter of fact.

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Right.

00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:47.040
In fact, I'll probably never now I'm afraid to ever go there because if anyone ever sees this interview in Dubai, they're probably gonna want to blacklist us.

00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:48.240
Well, we can just edit this part.

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No, heck no.

00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:52.240
Um So you had to go undercover.

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So were you like uh walking into a convenience store and someone kidnaps you and takes you away?

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That's actually not what trafficking is.

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That and that's a lot of the work that I've done.

00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:03.920
You know, I gave a TED talk on this.

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People think trafficking is sort of like that movie, you know, taken with Liam Neeson, where he was like, I'm going to save you.

00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:13.600
And the reality is that's actually not what most trafficking is.

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Most people are trafficked by a relative, somebody who knows them, or they find themselves in these situations out of desperation.

00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:36.399
You know, I would interview trafficked persons and they would say, Look, I had to make a very painful choice between watching my kids starve to death and taking a risk and taking a chance that if I went to this other country, I would make money and I would be able to send it home.

00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:41.199
But the the um you said these women were going to Dubai and making more money than you ever seen in your life.

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Those were the so these were the Iranian sex workers.

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Right.

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So that's so that's that's what's so funny.

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So that's upscale and pleasant.

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Well, by by choice.

00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:51.199
Now here's the interesting thing.

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Back in 2007, when you said the word trafficking, the word itself was like a rubber band.

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It stretched wide enough to include everybody in the sex industry, whether they were trafficked or not, but then it shrunk to exclude everyone outside the sex industry.

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So men, for instance, who were in construction work or women who were domestic workers, okay?

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So it wasn't serving anybody.

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The sex workers who were like, hey, I'm making this decision, not an easy decision, but you know, some of them were like, listen, Pardis, I'm too pretty to scrub toilets in Tehran.

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I'm gonna go do this and make a lot more than you'll ever make.

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It was complicated.

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It was hard, you know.

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So I was sort of trying to get my head around that.

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But then you had people on this other end who said, you know, I I remember this guy I was interviewing, actually from um the near Acom in India, and he was telling me that he had been told to come and work as a, he was going, he was, he had been told he was gonna come work as a cook, right?

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As a cook in one of these fancy hotels in Dubai.

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Well, he gets there and suddenly he's told, no, you're actually working, uh, you're going to be uh uh in the construction industry, you're going to be working these long shifts, you don't have a place to stay or live, you're gonna live in this tent, you're sleeping on the floor with you know 40 other men, there's no toilet.

00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:06.000
I mean, he didn't know.

00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:09.039
So, yes, he consented to go to Dubai.

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Yes, he consented to leave India.

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But what he did not consent to was his working conditions or the fact that, you know, his passport was being held, he wasn't getting paid what he was told he was going to get paid.

00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:31.600
But of course, at that point, he, like many people I've interviewed, they had leveraged, they had leveraged their family's money and all their belongings just to pay for the trip.

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Because the problem is traffickers, these unscrupulous middlemen, they charge the person.

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They're like, hey, you know, give me a thousand dollars, I'll take you to Dubai or wherever.

00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:43.840
I mean, I'm picking on just like the coyotes with Mexico.

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That's exactly right.

00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:44.879
Right.

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That's exactly right.

00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:45.840
Yeah.

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But the hotels hire the workers.

00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:54.240
So when you say traffic, because I think whenever I think of human trafficking, you always think about sex trafficking.

00:09:54.559 --> 00:10:01.679
And that's the that's the big problem, is that we can't always get restitution for people who are trafficked who aren't in the sex industry.

00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:07.840
But there are a lot in the United States, for instance, there's a great group called the Coalition for Amockley Workers.

00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:14.000
They've blown the whistle on a lot of trafficking cases in, for instance, um the agricultural industry.

00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:23.919
So, for instance, there's a there was a whole case of the people who men who were coming over to the United States, they were picking the tomatoes, being pistol whipped and having their wages held, you know.

00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:25.519
So it happens everywhere.

00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:31.919
Um, but it's often that people are trying to make a really tough decision between two pretty crappy like options.

00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:47.919
And for me, I I was trying to understand, you know, I I I I interviewed men, but then with the shipping container, I was trying to understand the trajectory of the women, particularly who were coming over to work as domestic workers or nannies in Dubai.

00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:54.879
I was trying to understand their trajectory, what was making them say yes, and then were they able to go back?

00:10:55.120 --> 00:11:08.000
In particular, one of the things I was interested in, which that's what took me to Madagascar later on, was because of the way the law is written in the Gulf states, it's I call it contractual sterilization.

00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:14.240
Women are told by contract they can't have sex during the time that they're there in country to work.

00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:20.320
Migrant women are told they can't have sex, but then their employers rape them sometimes.

00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:26.480
And then when the women show up pregnant, that's a visible marker that they've broken that law.

00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:30.399
And you know, which employer is gonna come forward and be like, Yes, I raped my maid.

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And um, so the women are often arrested and incarcerated and they have their babies in jail.

00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:42.480
And then the babies are stateless because citizenship in the Gulf passes through the father.

00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:45.120
And again, the father hasn't come forward, right?

00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:47.919
They don't have birthright citizenship.

00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:57.440
So now you have a situation where the woman is deported home to India, Madagascar, Ethiopia, but the baby remains in country stateless.

00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:07.200
So the way I ended up in Madagascar was we had this case of these 47 Malagasy women who were incarcerated in Kuwait.

00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:12.879
I was doing field working in the jails in Kuwait because they would let them stay while they were nursing the babies.

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The baby turned one, the women were deported.

00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:18.879
But I was very adamant at this point I had my own babies.

00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:26.000
And I was like, these babies should be able to go home because there were I had met and interviewed so many stateless kids in the Gulf.

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And I'm like, they should be able to go home.

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And they're like, Well, citizenship passes through the father, and it passes through the father at home.

00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:44.480
And so we went to the South African embassy and we were like, Can you just give us white passports just so we can get these kids home, back home to Madagascar with their moms for Christmas?

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And we did.

00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:45.759
Wow.

00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:46.879
Now, is this in a book?

00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:47.600
Yeah, that was a book.

00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:48.799
Is this going to be a movie?

00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:50.559
I don't sound like it should be a movie.

00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:55.759
A lot of my I feel like, you know, I have written a couple books that were probably more cinematic than that.

00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:57.279
You gotta get these to some people.

00:12:57.360 --> 00:12:58.080
Okay, wait.

00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:02.799
So you're in the shipping container with 47 women, is what we said?

00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:04.399
No, the 47 was Madagascar.

00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:06.720
I was in a shipping container with 31 women.

00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:10.159
Unfortunately, four of them were corpses by the end.

00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:12.720
So how long were you in the shipping container?

00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:16.000
Well, it was uh we went, let's see.

00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:20.799
I was probably because it was supposed to be past.

00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:25.519
So at this point, that that particular episode was about 18 hours.

00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.559
And are you in the shipping container and it's being shipped?

00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:30.320
It was getting ready to be shipped.

00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:32.480
Getting to to be workers somewhere.

00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:45.519
It was actually there were workers who were gonna be being shipped from Dubai to the Comoros Islands because uh we actually were banging so loudly on the edge of the can that uh somebody came and got us out.

00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:47.519
My God.

00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:48.799
Yeah, that is incredible.

00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:49.519
Yeah, it was a crazy.

00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:51.600
And then somehow you become president of a university.

00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:52.240
That's right.

00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:57.039
That many years later, and then now I'm a recovering academic.

00:13:57.440 --> 00:13:59.440
Well, so wait, right now, what are you doing?

00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:04.080
Right now, I the way I describe myself is first and foremost as an author.

00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:12.720
I spent a lot of my days writing, um, but I also am doing crisis communications for higher education, and I'm starting a university.

00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:14.320
You're starting a university?

00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:14.799
Yeah.

00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:16.320
Like an online university?

00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:18.320
Actually, it's gonna be a blend.

00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:20.879
And do you have you have a name for it?

00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:21.600
Is it already started?

00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:22.320
Do you have students?

00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:24.080
Uh we don't have students yet.

00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:26.000
We are lining up our faculty.

00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:30.720
Uh, and our approach is really because higher education today is broken.

00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:33.200
Uh for me and my own experience.

00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:51.840
So after I did all that wild, crazy medical anthrop medical anthropological work, the James Bond life, I uh I came back and I started to um kind of rise the academic ranks because I started to get focused on education and kind of what the education system was about.

00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:55.440
Um, what motivated me were really two things.

00:14:55.679 --> 00:14:57.759
One of them was my parents.

00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:00.480
My father, you know, I'm I'm Iranian American.

00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:04.080
We we came to the United States uh during the Iranian Revolution.

00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:09.919
And uh we were, I ended up, you know, my I was in utero when the revolution was happening.

00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:14.399
So I was born in Minnesota, that's where we were for a few years, and then we moved to California.

00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:23.679
Um, but you know, when we moved from Minnesota to California, my dad said something to me in that move, and he said, you know, Pardis, people can take everything from you.

00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:27.440
They can take your belongings, they can take your home, they can even take your country.

00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.480
But the one thing no one can ever take from you is your education.

00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:35.919
So that always like stuck with me, you know, as as the world was becoming topsy turvy.

00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:39.600
And I'm like, you know, I gotta help other people get that which can't be taken away.

00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:46.720
But probably the bigger impact for me was when I was a professor and I was just becoming, you know, department chair.

00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:51.200
Up in one particular year, we had three student suicides.

00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:57.679
And up until that point, I didn't know what it meant to award a posthumous degree, a degree to somebody who had died.

00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:12.559
And one of the suicides was a student of mine, and she was a student I was very close to, and it hit me really, really hard because that was the moment when I realized how inaccessible education had become for so many people.

00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:14.799
So I dove in headfirst.

00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:37.440
I became a dean, I became a you know, a dean at you know, at the University of Denver, and then I was dean at Arizona State, and then I was a provost at the University of Montana, and then I was president of the University of Laverne, and every move I made was really about helping more and more people get access and also figuring out how do we reform this system.

00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:44.240
So many people are suffering, so many people are in a suffering state, you know, to use uh uh the language of Krishnanji.

00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:48.080
And, you know, yet nobody was really addressing it.

00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:50.159
The numbers back this up.

00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:59.519
As we sit here today, it's the first time in American history where the the next generation, my kids' generation, will be less educated than their parents.

00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:05.680
It's the first time in American history where more than two-thirds of Americans believe college is not a good use of time, let alone money.

00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:06.799
I hear that a lot now.

00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:13.119
And it's the first time in American history we have 43 million Americans who started college but dropped out.

00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:14.880
We have 43 million dropouts.

00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:25.440
Well, part of that also you keep hearing about who uh Zuckerberg, you hear about Elon Musk, you hear about Jeff Bezos, all these guys that are billionaires, and they all dropped out.

00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:25.920
Yeah.

00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:27.920
But you kind of go, that could be me too.

00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:29.200
Yeah, there's that.

00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:35.119
And there's that pull, but there's always just like migration, there's always push factors and pull factors.

00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:36.400
So that's a pull.

00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:40.079
But I think there's also like we have to be honest with ourselves.

00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:43.599
You know, education has become totally inaccessible.

00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:45.440
I mean, look at tuition prices.

00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:50.480
I had students sleeping in their cars because you know their parents couldn't afford it.

00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:56.640
Well, the the one student who the suicide was that because of the demands of the class?

00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:58.000
Was it did you ever find out why?

00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:01.839
Yeah, you know, I talked I had talked with her before.

00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:04.480
I had talked with her friends, I spent a lot of time with her friends.

00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:15.359
She and her friends articulated feeling an overwhelming sense of guilt that that their families had mortgaged their homes so that they could be there.

00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:20.799
And they're like, if I'm not getting straight A's, like I'm letting my whole family down.

00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:27.200
And it was a combination of that guilt and not being able to see a path forward.

00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:42.160
So not being able to connect the dots and say, okay, this degree that my parents paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for, am I certain it's gonna get me a job that's gonna support my family?

00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:45.119
Let me ask you this.

00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:46.400
Are your parents still around?

00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:46.960
Yeah.

00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:49.279
How do your parents feel?

00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:52.960
I mean, your dad must be like, my god, my daughter.

00:18:53.920 --> 00:19:00.720
We came from another country in utero, and uh she's the president of a university in America.

00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:06.640
Like has he ever pulled you aside and told you how amazing that is?

00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:24.400
Uh you know, he was on stage at my inauguration, and I think it was a big day for him, but it was a mixed bag for him because um, you know, he saw that my career trajectory was really hard on me.

00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:29.680
And the higher up I I rose in the ranks, the unhappier I became.

00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:30.559
Really?

00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:31.759
Why?

00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:35.119
Because I got closer and closer to the pain.

00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:39.839
You know, like I somehow the pain of the students mirrored my own.

00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:45.279
And um I was just trying to achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve.

00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:55.680
And I kind of saw that they were going through the same thing, but feeling like things didn't make sense, feeling like the structures didn't make sense.

00:19:56.160 --> 00:20:02.880
And so by the time I became a president, I I was, you know, it was a lot had happened.

00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:10.240
I, you know, I when I was a dean here at ASU, I, you know, got divorced, and that was really hard on me and my my kids.

00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:11.519
I'm a single mom now.

00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:19.759
And um, and it, you know, it all that had happened and all of the things I had seen up close really took a toll on me.

00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:24.240
And it was hard to be inside the system and realize.

00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:28.240
I mean, look, this is what I this is what I explain to people today.

00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:34.559
It's like if you take away nothing else from our conversation, students don't need more content.

00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:36.160
They need context.

00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:39.039
They need context, not content.

00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:44.640
And so here I was in a system that I knew was broken, watching people suffer.

00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:46.079
I was also suffering.

00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:48.400
It just didn't make sense.

00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:53.119
I I couldn't, and you know, it it it took a real toll on me.

00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:55.039
How has meditation helped you?

00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:57.519
Because I knew you meditate with my wife in the mornings, right?

00:20:57.839 --> 00:20:58.240
I do.

00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:01.359
I love seeing her beautiful face and your pups, the dogs also.

00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:03.759
I believe the dogs are meditating with us.

00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:08.559
Um how did you discover the meditation program or the that group, Krishna G and Pristur?

00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:16.079
Yeah, I think I just I got connected to them through our friend, Ian, uh, our spiritual gangster, the great connector.

00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:17.359
He was just here last week.

00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:17.920
Was he?

00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:20.079
Yeah, he's uh he's he's the best.

00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:21.119
He's just the best.

00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:25.920
Um, I mean, I'm in YPO, so you know, I'm I got connected to him through that.

00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:30.319
But I had I had done some work when I had studied in India before.

00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:45.680
Um, and you know, I I meditation has always been something that like I kept trying to do and I knew I should do, but I I couldn't, it couldn't, I couldn't make it stick uh until I was introduced to to this work, to ACOM.

00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:48.319
And really I think it's the community, to be honest.

00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.799
Really, I think it's waking up and getting to see people like Blake and the pups.

00:21:52.960 --> 00:22:08.559
And and and um, you know, it's a it's the approach that the that our teachers, that Krishna G and Pritaji, like that approach of, you know, you wanna you want to come into your life from a beautiful state and not a suffering state, you know, it really opened my eyes.

00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:18.720
And, you know, when they said to me, you know, think about the decisions you've made from a suffering state, how well have those turned out as opposed to the decisions you've made from a beautiful state.

00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:39.200
And I realized that all of my books had always been written from a beautiful state because even though they were hard and I ended up locked in shipping containers and pulled off stage and interrogated and all these things, it was still a beautiful state because I really believed in what I was writing, you know, and I really believed in fighting for the causes that those people were about.

00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:42.880
So I came to it with that purity of heart.

00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:52.480
But a lot of the decisions that I was at times forced to make or that I was making, you know, as an administrator were coming from fear.

00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:54.480
And we know fear is a suffering state.

00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:58.079
Okay, so I saw you speak at this little thing, right?

00:22:58.319 --> 00:22:58.400
Yeah.

00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:00.799
We were at, I don't know how many six, seven, eight months ago.

00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:04.799
And you talked about getting pulled off stage and that whole story.

00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:05.200
Yeah.

00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:10.880
And what was interesting is I know you and I wanted to ask questions, but I don't want to ask questions in front of people.

00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:21.279
But like you're on stage and you get the freaking hood over your head pulled out like uh pulled off like in the movies, and they kept you 33 days.

00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:25.839
33 days you need to have a series of movies.

00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:29.440
And listen, you can argue with me, but you are Indiana Jones.

00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:34.160
Indiana James Bond is upscale tuxedos and fancy cars.

00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:34.640
That's true.

00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:44.880
Indiana Jones is shipping containers, and although the the the uh the methodology of you and met and in Indiana Jones is that the storyline for you is a little bit more serious.

00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:46.880
Well, there are people who are alive, yeah.

00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:48.160
Yeah, right.

00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:53.119
So uh so when you got 33 days, were you beaten?

00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:55.119
What were you what'd they do to you for 33 days?

00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:56.480
It was all psychological.

00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:58.319
Yeah, it was all psychological.

00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:02.720
Yeah, it was, you know, and you just the problem is you just don't know.

00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:04.799
Like you don't know when you're gonna get out.

00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:06.559
You don't know what's going to happen.

00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:09.440
You don't know if you're gonna survive this.

00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:15.119
And yet somehow it makes this is the really weird thing, right?

00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:16.160
It made more sense.

00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:19.200
I think the people always ask me, like, how did you get through that?

00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:22.160
Or how did you get through being in a shipping container?

00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:23.680
How do you get through those things?

00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:25.680
How did you get through those things?

00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:29.200
But then being an administrator in higher ed broke you.

00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:30.640
That's a really good question.

00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:31.440
I should have asked you that.

00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:32.079
That's a great question.

00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:35.119
But you led me right to it.

00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:44.400
I mean, it it's it's crazy for me to say that like being stuck in Iran wasn't as terrifying as being a leader in higher education.

00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:45.519
That's unbelievable.

00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:46.960
And I'll tell you why, though.

00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:51.680
Because, and it was the same when I was in Iran, when I was in, you know, throughout the Middle East.

00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:58.480
Um, it made sense to my brain, like, okay, they see me as the enemy, right?

00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:05.200
I had charges against they saw me as somebody who was trying to foment a velvet revolution.

00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:10.079
Because I my book was called Passionate Uprisings, Iran's Sexual Revolution.

00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:11.920
And you're in Iran talking about it.

00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:12.400
Yes.

00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:13.839
The ball's on you.

00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:14.400
I know.

00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:16.000
I think it was youth.

00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:17.119
Yeah.

00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:20.240
I was like, well, of course I'm gonna talk about it in Iran.

00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:22.880
I'm afraid to go to Dubai now after this interview.

00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:23.839
No, it's great.

00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:24.960
I'm I'm sure it's great.

00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:32.799
I I unfortunately for me in Dubai, I see those tall buildings, and all I can see are all the men I've interviewed who've lost their lives, you know.

00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:36.400
But it, you know, it's it's it there are things to be said for it.

00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:39.039
If you want to go to the Middle East, let's have you go to Egypt.

00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:40.240
Let's do that instead.

00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:48.480
Um, but Iran was it it's weird to say this, but you know, I kind of understood why they were mad at me.

00:25:48.640 --> 00:26:07.039
I understood why they were they they thought I was either this basically, they thought I was either fomenting a velvet revolution or they thought that I was somehow involved in a prostitution ring, which, okay, like not ideal in a country where, you know, premarital sex or extramarital sex is illegal, truly.

00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:11.200
You cannot have, you know, and um, they saw me as this marker of immorality.

00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:12.640
So I kind of understood it.

00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:14.799
It was awful, it was terrifying.

00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:17.200
But intellectually I understood it.

00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:22.000
And same thing with traffickers, like you understand their motive.

00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:28.720
I think the hardest thing for me about being in higher education was I'm like, why is everybody trying to tear me down?

00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:31.440
It didn't make sense intellectually.

00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:33.359
I'm like, I'm on your side.

00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:36.240
We are trying to advance the cause of education.

00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:45.279
We are trying to prepare the next generation, you know, to be informed citizens in society, to be able to meet the needs of workforce.

00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:48.559
Like, hey, we're just trying to, we're just trying to do right.

00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:49.920
We're all on the same side.

00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:54.720
So I think that that's it was a cognitive disconnect that put me in a suffering state.

00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:59.039
But the mental torture is what they for 33 days they were on is mental torture.

00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:00.000
So were you in a house?

00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:03.519
House arrests in a room, like a nice house, a two-bedroom condo?

00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:04.240
Like what kind of thing?

00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:06.880
No, I mean everything was, you know, it was sparse, everything was taken away.

00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:10.480
It was it was my it was my apartment, but everything had been everything, everything.

00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:14.000
So if you're in your apartment and there's like one guy at the door, inside, outside?

00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:16.319
Well, outside at times, inside at times.

00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:18.079
I mean, everything had been taken away.

00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:19.279
Everything had been taken away.

00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:22.400
And did you talk to like do you have one guy that you were talking to the whole time?

00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:23.039
Mostly.

00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:24.960
How come it was like how come you made it?

00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:29.920
Like how could I hear stories of you know, this person wore lipstick and something terrible happened?

00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:33.119
Yeah, so actually, but you know, and I was writing about this in my book.

00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:36.880
It was called a lipstick jihad because that's a great example, John Jay.

00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:43.119
At the time, if you wore red lipstick, your lips could be slashed by a razor from the morality police.

00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:44.799
I mean, that's serious consequences.

00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:46.960
But how come nothing like that happened to you?

00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:51.519
Well, first of all, I think it was the timing, you know, 2007.

00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:57.200
But I also think that at that time, I wasn't a big enough fish to fry.

00:27:57.279 --> 00:27:58.400
I hope, potentially.

00:27:58.559 --> 00:27:59.839
Honestly, I I don't know.

00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:01.680
I'm just grateful to no, I can't go back.

00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:02.319
You can't go back.

00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:03.119
I can't go back.

00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:05.200
Do you still have do you have do you have an American passport?

00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:06.079
Do you have a both?

00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:12.240
Uh my uh I don't I don't have my Iranian passport, um, but I have my American passport because I was born here.

00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:15.200
Um I uh no, I I can't go back.

00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:16.319
Are your parents there?

00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:18.319
My parents are here in California.

00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:21.200
Oh, every other day.

00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:22.799
It's been like that for a long time?

00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:23.200
Yeah.

00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:31.759
So when you were gone for 33 days, or when you're in a shipping container, or they're like, Oh, well, they always know well, they always know where I'm off doing some kind of crazy thing.

00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.000
Are you like, hey, I'm gonna go to Madagascar for a little bit?

00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:35.119
Yeah, pretty much.

00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:53.920
And is your dad or your mom just like well no, but let me tell you though, the funny thing is that at first when I was in Iran and I was doing my research, you know, between 2000 and 2006, 2007, I was doing my research, but my research entailed like going to parties and like raves, and and you know, I write in my book about observing like sex parties and things like that.

00:28:54.079 --> 00:28:56.799
And my parents were like, let me get this straight.

00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:00.480
You're getting grants to go over and party?

00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:01.920
Like, how do we get that job?

00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:03.279
And also parties.

00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:04.160
Exactly.

00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:05.279
That's exactly right.

00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:16.480
But uh, you know, they're they're like, you are at Columbia University getting a PhD and multiple masters, and somehow they're paying you to go to Tehran and go to parties.

00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:18.400
Like they couldn't understand that.

00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:20.640
That was like a cognitive disconnect for them.

00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:25.759
But then when they're like when I faced consequences, they're like, What were you thinking?

00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:26.400
You know.

00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:34.079
Um, and then later when, you know, shipping containers and all that started to come into play, they were just like, Are you ever gonna settle down?

00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:35.759
You know, but now you kind of have.

00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:37.119
Yes and no.

00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:39.200
Are you going any adventures?

00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:43.279
I think uh I I mean I think I go more on inner inner adventures.

00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:49.680
And then of course, you know, I I feel like, you know, the writing that I'm doing takes a lot bigger risks now.

00:29:49.759 --> 00:29:58.799
Cause I write fiction and I so I can take bigger risks now, and I can write more weirdly enough, I can write more honestly as a fiction writer than as a nonfiction writer.

00:29:58.960 --> 00:29:59.119
Wow.

00:29:59.279 --> 00:29:59.440
Yeah.

00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:01.680
So you went to sex parties?

00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:02.400
I did.

00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:04.559
In Iran and Dubai.

00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:06.160
So how do you get invited to that?

00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:06.720
And what do you see?

00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:08.319
Is there a code to walk in the door?

00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:09.920
Is it is there like eyes wide shut?

00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:12.240
I don't think Blake would let me give you the code.

00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:18.640
But what's like do you just walk in and you're just an observer and they're like, you've got a notepad out?

00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:22.240
Like how how So this goes back to what is it to be an anthropologist?

00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:24.640
People are like, well, what do you do as an anthropologist?

00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:27.839
And I say, Well, our method of work is called ethnography.

00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:29.279
What is ethnography?

00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:31.039
It's participant observation.

00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:33.599
So you go, you observe a phenomenon.

00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:42.960
Yeah, you take notes, or you kind of do a little voice recordings and you go to the bathroom where you kind of surreptitiously are like, okay, there's, you know, 45 people here, 30 of them are having sex.

00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:46.079
You know, you kind of are surreptitious, you know, not always like clipping.

00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:48.079
They don't think you're hey, come on in over here.

00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:49.680
Well, they knew what I was doing.

00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:51.119
They knew that I was researching.

00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:57.440
Well, I was very, I was, you know, these were young people involved in what they called a sexual revolution, right?

00:30:57.599 --> 00:30:58.000
Right.

00:30:58.240 --> 00:30:59.759
This was their movement.

00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:02.240
And I was trying to give a voice to their movement.

00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:06.000
I was trying to give them a platform to speak to the rest of the world.

00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:10.720
You know, at the time, 70% of Iran's population was under the age of 30.

00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:15.920
Highly educated, lots of young people, very disillusioned by the regime.

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:17.920
They didn't buy the rhetoric of the regime.

00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:19.839
They're like, this is nonsense.

00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:25.359
So they were speaking back to the regime by using their bodies and their sexuality.

00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:30.079
See, you gotta understand, this is a regime that came to power under a fabric of morality.

00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:38.319
And my favorite example of this, you're gonna listen, like, this is my favorite example that demonstrates for you how the situation really was.

00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:45.279
Okay, so I had this interviewee, and he was telling me about the, you know, the the Islamist regime in power.

00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:49.680
So they're facing high unemployment rates, terrible traffic and infrastructure.

00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:54.240
But instead of trying to resolve that, they had sat around and they came up with a law.

00:31:54.319 --> 00:32:08.319
There's a law in the books, and the law says that if there is an earthquake and a man from an upstairs apartment falls into a woman from a downstairs apartment and she gets pregnant, that the child is not a bastard and is an act of God.

00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:12.000
Now, who is sitting around thinking about that kind of a sex?

00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:13.359
Like, who?

00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:14.079
How?

00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:14.720
What?

00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:17.680
Now somebody got caught doing something in the children.

00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:21.519
I just want to know, like, if there's an earthquake, or is everybody ready?

00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:22.960
Like nobody's I don't know.

00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:28.480
But the the young people were saying to me, listen, like these folks are more concerned about things like that.

00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:34.960
This is the language that they understand is morality and sexuality and West toxication.

00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:37.680
So we're gonna use that language to speak back to them.

00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:40.000
We're gonna use our bodies to resist the regime.

00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:41.680
That was the sexual revolution.

00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:45.680
So they're like, please come to the sex party and write about it.

00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:47.440
Um, you went to Columbia University.

00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:48.319
Yes, I did.

00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:50.640
Um was that a scholarship?

00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:54.880
Was that just you got in and your parents paid or you took student loans?

00:32:55.200 --> 00:33:02.559
Well, so when you do a PhD program, at least at the time, PhD programs are you're paid because of course you're also a TA, you're working.

00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:03.279
Right, right, right.

00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:05.119
Uh so you know Did you undergrad somewhere else?

00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:06.720
I did undergrad at Occidental College.

00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:07.200
Oh wow.

00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:10.240
I did the Barack track, Barack Obama, Oxy to Columbia.

00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:12.000
So he did the same thing, Oxy to Colombia.

00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:13.440
I have a friend of mine that did that too.

00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:14.319
Yeah, yeah.

00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:22.880
So I went to Occidental, and then as soon as I graduated, well, while I was there, I worked for the UN for a bit, and then as soon as I graduated, I know.

00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:25.119
You are I know, it's insane.

00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:26.960
It's I know, I know.

00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:29.839
And I so I kept working for the UN when I was at Columbia.

00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:46.319
So I was TAing, I was working for the United Nations, and I was at a uh at a certain point, I spent a couple years working for the National Institute for Drug Abuse, where because I was a medical anthropologist, medical anthropology sits at the intersection of sex and drugs, right?

00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:49.039
Or sex, psychedelics, and the superconscious.

00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:54.480
And I was uh part of a study, I was doing helping do research on um club drugs.

00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:58.880
So it was literally my parents were like sex, drugs, and then you w.

00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:02.960
So did you get the experiment in the psychedelics?

00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:04.960
Uh at the time I was just writing about it.

00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:06.000
But now you have.

00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:08.159
Yes.

00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:14.559
And and did you do that with uh like a shamans only yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:15.519
Outside of the country.

00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:16.480
And did it change your life?

00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:18.800
Like I totally did it totally you said no.

00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:19.760
Completely changed my life.

00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:20.079
Okay.

00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:21.199
Completely changed my life.

00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:22.239
But in what way?

00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:29.360
Because I've heard that from so many people, and it excites me to kind of want to try it, but then I'm also afraid because I kind of like what I got going on right now.

00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:37.679
Well, it touches parts of you and it excavates things that no amount of hours or years on a couch with a therapist is going to do.

00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:38.480
But like what?

00:34:38.559 --> 00:34:47.519
Like what's uh like when I I so our our our friend told me about this girl that does the psychedelics or the the mushrooms or right?

00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:48.960
Uh-huh, mushroom journeys or whatever.

00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:49.199
Yeah.

00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:49.519
Yeah.

00:34:49.760 --> 00:35:00.000
And I she I it was so hush hush and under the table, and she came in and I met her in a room and she made a tea.

00:35:00.800 --> 00:35:01.360
Oh wow, yeah.

00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:01.679
Right.

00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:07.360
And I drank the tea, and then she was gonna take notes, and I was supposed to tell her everything that I that I was feeling.

00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:08.719
And I'm a pretty big guy.

00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:09.280
Yeah.

00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:16.559
And I think that I didn't get enough of the dose because I didn't really feel I felt like uh I was placeboing myself.

00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:17.039
Okay.

00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:25.679
Like I felt like, okay, because generally speaking, like if I just sit down and and close my eyes or whatever, I I can let the visions come that are pretty crazy.

00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:25.920
Yeah.

00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:30.000
And I was saying things to her and she was writing it down, and we were there for like three or four hours or something.

00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:30.559
Wow.

00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:32.880
And I I didn't think anything was different.

00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:36.079
I I felt when I go back, I feel like I kind of made it up.

00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:36.480
Yeah.

00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:37.840
Because I don't think I got enough.

00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:38.400
Possibly.

00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:43.840
I've talked to so many people that did ketamine that, and that my god, you gotta do this.

00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:45.360
It's the cra, it's the most amazing thing.

00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:50.719
And now my wife, she's really because she's had some little bit of trauma that she wants to unpack somehow.

00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:54.559
Yeah, and the meditation is helping her tremendously.

00:35:54.800 --> 00:36:02.480
Um, and I'm kind of like, I I I'm afraid for her to do it because what if she doesn't like me anymore?

00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:04.079
Or what if she doesn't like it?

00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:05.519
I don't A, I don't think that's possible.

00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:08.000
She's like, what am I doing here?

00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:08.719
No, I know.

00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:09.280
I know.

00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:10.159
A lot of people say that.

00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:12.320
A lot of people say that that that's their worry.

00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:18.159
But first of all, I mean, she knows, you know, we all the meditation is also getting you there.

00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:19.280
She said that too.

00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:19.599
Yeah.

00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:21.440
I mean, the meditation is getting you there.

00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:29.039
The way I describe it, and the way I, you know, I had a shaman who once described it to me, like that the plant medicines are like a chairlift to God, right?

00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:32.000
They're like a chairlift to kind of some of your inner work.

00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:35.119
Whereas meditation is like you're hiking up that mountain.

00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:38.320
You're both, you're both things are gonna get you to the top.

00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:39.840
Do you want to chairlift it?

00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:43.360
Some people need to chairlift, and some people are like, no, I'm gonna walk it.

00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:47.599
I'm gonna walk it so I know like there's a little ridge over here, there's a cactus over here.

00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:52.320
So when I'm coming down, because see, that's the thing, nobody talks about coming down the mountain.

00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:59.039
Everybody's always talking about peaking and getting higher and higher and elevating and elevating, but the integration is so important.

00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:06.960
And that's where the meditation is so helpful because if you've gotten up to that point by walking it yourself, right?

00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:21.440
Climbing it through the work that we do, it's just it's I mean, you're you're able to walk it down, you're able to integrate those peak moments where you have these huge downloads and these huge connections to the divine, you're able to like make more sense of it.

00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:24.480
Whereas sometimes it can be, and this is something I've studied, right?

00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:27.519
As a medical anthropologist, I also have studied extensively.

00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:29.119
I've studied with shamans.

00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:36.559
And one of the things that people will say to you, I've studied with people who've also partaken of all sorts of plant medicines.

00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:41.280
Uh, and one of the things people will say to you is, you know, it can be challenging.

00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:43.360
You take this, like let's say ibogaine, right?

00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:45.039
The ibogaine is the big one right now.

00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:48.559
You know, Rick Perry's all over talking about Ibogaine in Arizona.

00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:52.480
You know, we had um Kirsten Cinema talking about it.

00:37:52.559 --> 00:38:00.559
And last year in the Arizona legislature, they passed a bill that's, you know, supplying millions of dollars to support ibogaine research.

00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:04.159
So let's let's talk about the iboga plant, which which makes ibogaine.

00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:04.880
Iboga comes from.

00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:06.880
I'll say right now, I've never heard of any of this right now.

00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:07.360
Really?

00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:08.960
Unless it's called something else on the street.

00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:10.320
Nope, it's uh it's ibogaine.

00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:11.039
Ibogaine?

00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:11.599
Ibogaine.

00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:12.239
Never heard of it.

00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:12.880
Yeah, Ibogaine.

00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:13.679
To be honest with you.

00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:13.920
Okay.

00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:15.760
And what's fascinating still?

00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:16.719
Is it a mushroom?

00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:21.280
Well, no, it comes from the root of a the iboga plant, which is from Gabon.

00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:21.840
Okay.

00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:29.679
And it's considered the strongest psychedelic there is at the moment, uh, even more than five Me O DMT, which we can talk about that one.

00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:30.880
That's buffo.

00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:38.480
Um, but Ibogaine, interestingly, the loudest proponents of Ibogaine today are uh people in the Republican Party.

00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:41.360
Rick Perry, former governor of Texas.

00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:49.039
Uh actually, uh Governor Abbott of Texas passed a bill uh last year that funded something like$50 million for Ibogaine research.

00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:49.920
What does it do?

00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:57.840
It's a very powerful psychedelic, and right now it's being used on uh former military, uh, so veterans, uh, former Navy SEALs, first responders.

00:38:59.440 --> 00:38:59.840
PTSD.

00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:04.480
Yeah, so the two biggest things Ibogaine does is it helps cure addiction.

00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:10.079
So people who are massive heroin addicts, they do one time in Ibogaine, never touch it again.

00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:10.480
Wow.

00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:11.360
Isn't it fascinating?

00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:12.079
It's fascinating.

00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:13.039
This stuff is fascinating.

00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:19.519
NAD was for to help people get off of heroin, but it was eight-hour drips and yeah, and it's in NAD doesn't have the same.

00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:25.280
I mean, when you look at the studies, and and the other thing Ibogaine does, so there's the Stanford Brain Study.

00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:34.159
There's a number of studies right now, but the Stanford Brain Study actually, and Rick Perry was part of it, it actually measured people's brains before and after ibogaine.

00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:40.559
Now, we know from our teachers in India that our brains also change with meditation because they're also studying that.

00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:42.639
There is a difference in white matter.

00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:51.199
With one round of treatment, just one round of ibogaine treatment, people's brains are dramatically changing.

00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:52.000
Permanently?

00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:52.639
Permanently.

00:39:54.159 --> 00:39:54.639
Permanently.

00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:56.079
So is it a pill, an injection?

00:39:56.639 --> 00:39:59.280
So you can take it as a tea or you could take it as a pill.

00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:00.639
This is ibogaine.

00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:02.239
Now we could talk about other psychedelics.

00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:03.920
Five MEO DMT is smoked.

00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:06.400
That's the Sonoran toad venom.

00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:07.760
We could talk about different ones.

00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:13.280
Ibogaine is just really fascinating because the data are so incredible.

00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:25.039
What we're seeing is that, you know, addicts who've who had tried everything, people who've been heroin addicts for 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, one round of ibogaine, they never touch it again.

00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:27.599
Five years, 10 years later, they still haven't touched it.

00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:29.280
Wow, I've never heard of this before.

00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:34.239
And these military guys, well, you I mean, you know, there's a lot of research being done.

00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:35.280
I can connect you with folks.

00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:36.000
It'd be interesting.

00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:38.000
You know, you can you can interview one of my friends, Dr.

00:40:38.079 --> 00:40:39.119
Martin Polanco.

00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:41.679
He is a doctor who's been doing this research for 25 years.

00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:43.360
Have you dabbled in ibigaine?

00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:49.679
Ibigaine, I have not, because it is really for very, you know, but a lot of the people I work with have.

00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:52.480
I work a lot with first responders and Navy SEALs and Green Berets.

00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:54.400
But let's say you don't have trauma.

00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:57.840
You don't have, can it be used for anti-aging or longevity?

00:40:58.079 --> 00:40:59.039
Can it repair brain cells?

00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:01.119
That's what people are studying as we speak.

00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:04.800
So I take it and I do I do you go, oh my ugly, or do you have to do it?

00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:06.480
Well, no, it's actually you're not tripping.

00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:10.719
So these are also, I mean, here's the thing: people think psychedelics are all hallucinogens.

00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:11.840
They're actually not.

00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:18.880
So there are classes of of uh psychedelics that are what we would call empathogens or entheogens.

00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:22.480
They allow you to be either like MDMA is an empathogen.

00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:27.199
It allows you, you're not hallucinating, you're not tripping, like the leaves aren't changing or anything.

00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:30.800
But when you take MDMA, your empathy, your heart opens up.

00:41:31.039 --> 00:41:32.880
You have much greater capacity for empathy.

00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:35.119
So everyone at these concerts, I love you.

00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:36.000
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:36.800
Well, there's that.

00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:39.840
So there's so there's also a difference between that's a great point, actually.

00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:56.400
There's a difference between taking these drugs and going to a concert, and whereas versus taking them as medicine with a shaman or with a provider or with a health care practitioner or a shaman who's going to do a ceremony around it and then invite you to go inwards.

00:41:56.480 --> 00:41:56.719
Yeah.

00:41:56.960 --> 00:42:02.239
With MDMA, it's being used a lot for couples therapy, which is actually what it was invented to do.

00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:08.800
When Sasha Shulgin, Alexander Shulgin, and his wife invented MDMA, she was a couples therapist.

00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:17.119
They invented this medicine for couples counseling so that people could drop into their hearts and open their hearts to each other.

00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:19.440
And you remember when you come out of it?

00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:20.079
Yeah, yeah.

00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:21.119
MDMA you remember often.

00:42:21.360 --> 00:42:22.159
But what about what's it called?

00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:22.800
Imagine Imogen.

00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:23.440
Ibegaine?

00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:23.920
Ibogaine.

00:42:24.159 --> 00:42:25.039
Ibegaine is different.

00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:33.039
You remember it because the experience of Ibegaine is when you take it, you it you close your eyes and you see your life like you're watching a movie.

00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:36.480
So you see, you see scenes from your childhood.

00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:43.920
So I've had people tell me about, you know, thinking that they were gonna go in there, people who were, you know, they were serving in the war on terror, right?

00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:46.559
Because, you know, one of my books is about the war on terror.

00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:50.000
We, you know, horse subs we were smuggling horse sperm into Afghanistan.

00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:50.960
And we could talk about that.

00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:52.000
But horse sperm.

00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:52.719
I know, it was crazy.

00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:54.960
Why do we have to smuggle horse sperm in?

00:42:55.360 --> 00:43:02.079
To continue breeding the horses that the United States Green Berets rode when they were fighting the Taliban during the war on terror.

00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:05.360
They actually rode these horses that my grandmother helped to breed.

00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:05.920
Wow.

00:43:06.079 --> 00:43:07.199
I know it's a crazy story.

00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:12.800
So I have this deep connection to the Green Berets and to a lot of former military.

00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:19.519
And when I talk to them about Ibegain, they often tell me, you know, I went in there thinking I was just gonna see scenes from Afghanistan, etc.

00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:26.159
And they say that a lot of the scenes they saw was from childhood and things like childhood abuse and things like, you know.

00:43:26.559 --> 00:43:27.119
But trauma.

00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:27.519
Trauma.

00:43:28.159 --> 00:43:30.239
I'd like to know what happens if you had no trauma.

00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:38.079
I think if you had no trauma, then I have actually interviewed people who have no trauma, they get to see like the things that they love.

00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:43.280
They get to like have memories that they forgot, like maybe a hug from their dad that they had forgotten about.

00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:51.360
And one of one of one of the guys I interviewed recently, he said, I got to be with my cat and my aunt, my two favorite who had both passed.

00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:53.920
He said, I got to spend eight hours with my cat and my aunt.

00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:55.920
In real time, like not flashback.

00:43:57.199 --> 00:44:02.800
Yeah, I mean, it was sort of in in their mind, they were having a conversation with their cat and their.

00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:08.400
I mean, so I guess you could see it sounds a little trippy, but it's it's kind of more working it on an energetic plane.

00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:14.480
I think it was some people say that they got to say things, they got to have conversations that they didn't get to have.

00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:24.000
I I interviewed somebody who um their sister had died, and they hadn't had a chance to say something really, really important to their sister before she died.

00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:31.519
And they did a different medicine, it wasn't ibogaine, it was a different medicine, but they did a different medicine and it allowed them to speak to their sister.

00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:34.079
And that gave them peace when their medicine wore off.

00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:34.400
Yeah.

00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:37.920
And it has like five years later, they they feel so much lighter.

00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:38.880
Wow.

00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:39.280
Yeah.

00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:45.199
Or you can do the work and climb up the hill and get there when you get Ibogaine.

00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:46.800
It it's you know, it's different.

00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:48.719
See, it people are at different places.

00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:56.239
So, you know, I I think about this, I I don't judge, like, you know, some people might say, well, that's a shortcut, you know, take a chairlift to God, that's a shortcut.

00:44:56.639 --> 00:45:00.000
And I'm like, listen, different people need different things at different times.

00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:07.119
If you are somebody who's just come out of the military and you have suffered a great deal of trauma, or I think about first responders.

00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:14.800
You know, I work with a lot of first responders here who are just, they've, you know, seen so much death and destruction and trauma.

00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:24.880
For them, it's harder to get them to still themselves to meditate, you know, suddenly somebody who's just been adrenaline, adrenaline, adrenaline, go, go, go, go, go.

00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:26.320
They're programmed in a certain way.

00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:29.920
Now you tell them, okay, have a seat and go into the beautiful state.

00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:30.159
Right.

00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:31.679
Let's be honest, John Jay.

00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:36.480
I mean, but after the ibogaine, they all are able to do that.

00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:40.079
Whereas before the ibogaine, they weren't, as an example.

00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:42.079
Or for some people, it's ayahuasca.

00:45:42.159 --> 00:45:43.440
You know, it it it depends.

00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:47.679
Yeah, ayahuasca is, you know, people are talking a lot about ayahuasca.

00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:58.159
The data on ibogaine are just staggering because you have so many people studying the the, I mean, the fact that it treats addiction the way that it does, people literally don't touch the substance ever again.

00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:01.519
Or, or people who've been drinking alcohol their whole lives.

00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:07.360
Like that was Rick Perry was saying, you know, he's like, I wasn't an alcoholic, but I did ibogaine and I do not want to drink ever again.

00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:12.559
You know, because it's bad for you, and it automatically tells you that's not like all of a sudden it makes you do things that are just good for you.

00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:17.519
Well, we don't know exactly how these plants work, but what we do know is for thousands of years they've been used.

00:46:17.599 --> 00:46:24.400
I mean, I think about the plants that were being used in Iran by my ancestors thousands of years ago, or the plants that were used in ancient Greece.

00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:27.280
I mean, plants have been around a lot longer than we have.

00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:27.519
Right.

00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:29.199
I mean, just think about that, right?

00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:32.239
They've been around a lot longer than we as humans have.

00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:37.360
And so we're just right now starting to figure out how do these plants work?

00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:43.840
And to me, that's a really important area of education that we need to be leaning into right now.

00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:51.440
Because if these plants and these medicines are having the effects that we they seem to be, and again, we don't know.

00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:53.119
We don't know exactly, right?

00:46:53.199 --> 00:46:54.239
We don't know exactly how they work.

00:46:54.320 --> 00:46:55.760
To your point, it's like, well, how do they work?

00:46:55.840 --> 00:46:57.519
And can they have adverse effects?

00:46:57.679 --> 00:46:58.000
Sure.

00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:00.719
You know, can you have a bad trip on ayahuasca?

00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:01.199
Sure, sure.

00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:04.960
I mean, we hear we hear tons of stories about a friend who does mushrooms like every day.

00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:09.760
And he'll tell me sometimes that he does a just trip, or I'm like, God, that sounds so yeah unappealing.

00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:13.599
Like, I kind of like being in somewhat control of my thoughts in my brain, you know.

00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:14.480
Yeah, yeah.

00:47:14.559 --> 00:47:18.800
And I think that again, there's that, and you we mentioned you mentioned like the people at the concerts.

00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:36.880
I mean, there is to me a distinction versus therapy, using Yeah, as as medicine, or in the shamanic realms, or you know, coming to the medicine with an intention and saying, Hey, I'm hoping that you will open my heart to my partner, or I'm hoping that you will help me find clarity of purpose.

00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:39.920
I'm gonna bring it up on the my radio show tomorrow and see if anyone's ever taken it.

00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:40.800
I bogaine.

00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:41.599
I bagain.

00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:42.400
I bogaine.

00:47:42.559 --> 00:47:43.280
I bogaine.

00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:43.599
Yeah.

00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:45.679
It's fascinating.

00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:48.639
I mean, and it's it's one of those that you're not just taking to get high.

00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:50.239
No, but it's not like mushrooms.

00:47:50.480 --> 00:47:54.800
It's not like because it is really hard on you know the body, right?

00:47:54.880 --> 00:47:59.519
Because you're seeing all these things and people do purge, like ayahuasca, they do purge.

00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:03.119
So this is not one of those that people are taking just to get high.

00:48:03.199 --> 00:48:05.840
It's all it's done, you know, with professionals.

00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:10.639
It's done in a typically, typically it's done in a clinical setting or in a shamanic setting.

00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:15.920
So I had um, I've been doing this podcast now for a while, and I've had some guests that I think are like awesome.

00:48:16.159 --> 00:48:17.440
You're absolutely one of them.

00:48:17.599 --> 00:48:19.039
But the other one was Joe Polish.

00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:19.760
I love Joe.

00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:20.719
And I was so curious.

00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:26.159
Joe Polish is like a connection to every single person that I've wanted to interview or have interviewed.

00:48:26.239 --> 00:48:27.760
How do you know Joe Polish?

00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:29.360
I met Joe.

00:48:29.599 --> 00:48:33.119
This is actually directly related to the conversation we were just having.

00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:34.079
A group of folks.

00:48:34.239 --> 00:48:37.679
So, you know, one of the things that's popular in Arizona are these salons, right?

00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:45.360
People like to organize ever since I was dean at ASU, I got connected to this community of people who like to host salons in their homes.

00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:48.079
Salon, like a what's like a learning, like a like a gathering.

00:48:48.559 --> 00:48:49.119
Like a mastermind.

00:48:49.280 --> 00:48:50.400
People use the word mastermind now.

00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:52.239
Yes, a salon to me sounds like hair.

00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:53.679
Well, I know, I know, I know.

00:48:53.760 --> 00:49:00.320
I I I love it because it's kind of similar to the far Persian word, but but it's different from masterminds because it's it's more casual.

00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:04.480
You come to somebody's home, there's food, there's wine often, you know, or whatever.

00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:12.719
It's in the evenings and it's you know, two, three hours, and people gather and they ask people to come and and talk about something that they want to learn about.

00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:21.599
So I first got connected to the salon community, if you will, back in 2019 when someone said, Hey, Pardeez, we don't understand human trafficking.

00:49:21.760 --> 00:49:24.320
You gave a TED talk on human trafficking.

00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:25.599
Come tell us about it.

00:49:25.760 --> 00:49:28.239
Like we realize that we don't understand what it is.

00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:29.440
So I went and I did that.

00:49:29.679 --> 00:49:31.679
So you're like someone's house, 20 people there.

00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:33.679
Uh probably 40, 40 or 50 people.

00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:35.119
Hey, I was in a shipping container.

00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:35.840
Pretty much, yeah.

00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:37.039
Pass the uh cheese.

00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:38.159
Yeah, pretty much.

00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:40.159
But but it I actually I really love that.

00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:44.719
You know, I love that people are are coming together and saying, hey, we want to learn about something.

00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:46.079
I love that, you know.

00:49:46.159 --> 00:49:49.599
I love that that that friend, it's one of the things that makes me love Arizona.

00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:53.039
You know, I've lived in seven different countries and seven different states.

00:49:53.280 --> 00:49:55.519
People always ask me, what's your favorite place you've ever lived?

00:49:55.599 --> 00:49:56.639
And I'm like, Arizona.

00:49:56.800 --> 00:50:02.559
And I think that that this this curiosity, this like thirst for knowledge is one of the reasons I love living here.

00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:15.920
Um, but so back to your question about Joe, uh, I was asked to do a salon on plant medicine because one of these same communities was like, hey, we want to understand this, we want to learn about this, and we want to learn about it from an expert.

00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:19.039
You know, I have a PhD in medical anthropology and I've studied it quite a bit.

00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:28.079
And I'd written a number of articles that, you know, had had actually got, you know, my articles had been translated into like five languages and they were appearing in 40 countries.

00:50:28.159 --> 00:50:29.840
I can send you my plant medicine pieces.

00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:33.199
And uh they said, Okay, would you come do a salon on plant medicine?

00:50:33.280 --> 00:50:34.159
And I said, sure.

00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:36.400
And somebody invited Joe Polish.

00:50:36.559 --> 00:50:38.960
And so I'm up there and I'm talking about plant medicine.

00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:41.920
I'm talking about how it's so helpful for recovery.

00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:44.079
And of course, you know, he has genius recovery.

00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:50.480
And I'm talking about how we're these data are showing these staggering results, you know, in the recovery space.

00:50:50.719 --> 00:50:55.280
And we met and realized very quickly we are fellow tribal, like we are such kindred.

00:50:55.519 --> 00:50:59.599
It's sort of like you, you know, it's like I feel like we have people who were just kindred spirits.

00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:02.159
Like we're curious about the same things.

00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:06.719
And to me, what we're curious about is this sort of realm of the superconscious, right?

00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:10.320
Like, what is this energetic thing that binds so many of us?

00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:12.400
And there's so much more out there.

00:51:12.559 --> 00:51:16.320
Like, how do we tap into all the more, all the more that's out there?

00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:18.159
So, yeah, that's how I met Joe.

00:51:18.400 --> 00:51:19.280
That's fascinating.

00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:20.239
He is fascinating.

00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:20.960
He is fascinating.

00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:25.039
And so if you have an ailment, an ailment, do you go to plant medicine?

00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:29.519
You don't go to pharmaceutical, or all you have both, they're connected.

00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:35.280
Yeah, so I'm the daughter of a daughter and the granddaughter and the niece of doctors, MDs.

00:51:35.360 --> 00:51:37.760
Like everyone in my family is an MD.

00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:38.159
Almost.

00:51:38.239 --> 00:51:43.039
I mean, my father's a doc, my brother's a doc, my uncles are all docs, all MDs.

00:51:43.119 --> 00:51:48.239
Um, my youngest brother's a political scientist, so he was like the black sheep like me, the the two PhDs.

00:51:48.400 --> 00:51:50.480
But um, everyone else are MDs.

00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:53.679
And so it's funny that I kind of taken this path.

00:51:53.920 --> 00:51:58.400
I I think look, there's a place for Western medicine, certainly.

00:51:58.480 --> 00:52:01.920
You know, like if I need a new pair of glasses, I'm going to an eye, you know.

00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:04.800
Um but the glasses is a good example.

00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:08.320
Like, if I need a new pair of reading glasses, I'll go to the I'll go to the IDoc.

00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:14.320
But if I want to really see something that I feel like I'm not seeing, then I'll go to plant medicine.

00:52:14.719 --> 00:52:24.480
Like ketamine, for instance, that you you know you're talking about ketamine, ketamine helps you to see things from a different perspective because you're out of your body.

00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:27.599
And so you can see and experience things like that.

00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:28.320
Is that a plant?

00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:28.800
Ketamine?

00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:30.480
Ketamine is a psychedelic.

00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:34.960
Uh it's it's uh yes, I have.

00:52:35.039 --> 00:52:35.920
It is legal here in Arizona.

00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:38.559
And do you love it, or is it just something like I tried it?

00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:42.400
Um, I I I I think it's really powerful and I think it's really profound.

00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:42.639
Yeah.

00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:46.480
But again, it's not something I would do just like, hey, it's a Saturday night.

00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:46.800
Let's go.

00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:47.679
No, I just button.

00:52:48.079 --> 00:52:51.360
He goes, dude, I just did a ketamine IV drip.

00:52:51.440 --> 00:52:53.760
It was the most I've done every drug in the world.

00:52:53.920 --> 00:52:54.079
Yeah.

00:52:54.239 --> 00:52:55.440
And this thing was the best trip.

00:52:55.599 --> 00:52:58.239
And this guy's very successful business guy.

00:52:58.320 --> 00:52:59.360
I have a lot of respect for him.

00:52:59.760 --> 00:53:00.880
And I was he was like, it's the best.

00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:02.960
And I was like, I've never done drugs.

00:53:03.199 --> 00:53:03.519
Yeah.

00:53:03.760 --> 00:53:05.920
I don't, I don't, I don't care to do that.

00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:06.239
Yeah.

00:53:06.800 --> 00:53:11.199
But if it does something to you, uh you know, like I try I try to be as healthy as I can.

00:53:11.280 --> 00:53:11.440
Absolutely.

00:53:11.760 --> 00:53:13.840
But if it's something that's gonna make me healthier, like stem cells.

00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:16.079
Yeah, like I talk about stem cells in this podcast all the time.

00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:21.039
But that's like I I I I look into that as much as I can to help me live longer and healthier.

00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:21.920
Are you into stuff like that?

00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:23.760
Like longevity and biohacking.

00:53:23.920 --> 00:53:24.320
Yeah, too.

00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:25.039
I mean, to an extent.

00:53:25.119 --> 00:53:26.800
I like you, I try to be really healthy.

00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:35.760
I I have to say though, that since I came back to, I I say came back to because I was studying all these different kinds of roads to consciousness.

00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:50.400
But ever since I came back to what I would call the shamanic realm, so meditation, yes, but also the different, you know, uh uh allies, you know, psychedelic allies or or what have you, I'm a lot healthier.

00:53:50.719 --> 00:53:52.559
Um, I dropped 20 pounds.

00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:56.639
I was able to really find clarity of purpose.

00:53:56.800 --> 00:54:01.280
I have a way better relationship with my children and my family than I ever have.

00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:01.760
Really?

00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:02.320
Way better.

00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:06.480
When you say you dropped 20 pounds, is it exercise or you stop the meditation helped you?

00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:07.760
I mean, what everything.

00:54:07.840 --> 00:54:16.719
It was you, you the meditation, but all the other work that I was doing too, it helps you really see that all the ways in which we all try to numb out.

00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:18.400
And sometimes it's just eating.

00:54:18.639 --> 00:54:20.159
Like we're just trying to numb out.

00:54:21.920 --> 00:54:22.079
Yeah.

00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:23.039
Imagine that.

00:54:23.199 --> 00:54:23.679
Ibogaine.

00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:23.840
Yeah.

00:54:24.320 --> 00:54:31.280
So I've had I've worked with two people who the Ibogaine actually made them stop eat like eating when they didn't really want to.

00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:46.559
Like they realized that it what it half the time what these what these medicines do is they take a mirror that's pushed up so close to your face and they just pull it back far enough for you to be able to look at yourself in a different light and be like, huh, I didn't realize I did that.

00:54:47.199 --> 00:54:52.159
And then once you see the pattern, once you see it, you can break it.

00:54:52.400 --> 00:54:52.639
Right.

00:54:52.880 --> 00:54:55.440
So let me ask you, this this is stupid, but I have to tell you.

00:54:55.679 --> 00:55:07.679
No, you know how like um uh like if you have a friend that's single, oh you gotta meet my other friend that's single, even though there's like nothing in common, or like my friend got married and and oh you're gay?

00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:08.800
Oh, here he's gay.

00:55:09.519 --> 00:55:12.960
Like, so I I have this very good friend of mine who's from Iran.

00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:13.760
Oh, really?

00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:17.039
Yeah, and I and he's he is the most beautiful human being.

00:55:17.199 --> 00:55:19.679
Not trying to set you up, I mean inside, beautiful human being.

00:55:20.239 --> 00:55:26.079
He is uh he he he's from there and he came to this country and he loves this country so much.

00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:28.800
It's so patriotic and he's such a beautiful man.

00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:31.519
I texted him and said, Hey, I'm gonna call you.

00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:34.320
I've never done this before, but I want to call I wanted to call him on the podcast.

00:55:34.639 --> 00:55:36.000
Yes, let's do it.

00:55:36.239 --> 00:55:37.280
His name is David Kalaj.

00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:38.320
You don't happen to know him, do you?

00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:39.360
No, but let's do it.

00:55:39.440 --> 00:55:40.559
Let's speak a little farcy.

00:55:40.800 --> 00:55:44.079
Yeah, I oh I yeah, he is I love it.

00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:45.280
He is my countryman.

00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:47.119
He's such a wonderful man.

00:55:47.360 --> 00:55:52.079
Like, if there was ever like a level of joy that you can have at a 10 at all times, that's him.

00:55:52.239 --> 00:55:52.559
Really?

00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:56.239
Okay, but wait, has he read my book where I'm talking about the orgy and Iran?

00:55:56.400 --> 00:55:56.880
Because I might be able to do it.

00:55:57.039 --> 00:55:57.920
I don't know if he's read the book.

00:55:58.079 --> 00:56:00.320
You can ask him, but I'm just gonna I just want to cold column.

00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:01.760
I mean, I told him I was gonna call it.

00:56:01.840 --> 00:56:02.320
This is great.

00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:02.800
I love this.

00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:04.400
How do you what's the best way to go speaker?

00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:05.920
This is when he answers the phone.

00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:07.280
He's just so I bet you're so happy.

00:56:07.519 --> 00:56:08.639
Hey, but I'm a speaker.

00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:10.000
Oh, it is.

00:56:10.239 --> 00:56:11.440
Hello, it's David.

00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:12.880
David Collage.

00:56:13.440 --> 00:56:15.280
Yes, how are you, my good friend?

00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:21.199
Hi, I do I'm uh I'm doing the podcast right now, and I said say hi to my friend Pardeez.

00:56:21.679 --> 00:56:23.119
Hi, Paris, how are you?

00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:25.199
Paris is Pardeez, no, no, Pardeez.

00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:30.400
Yes, my pardis hasam, hollow sham.

00:56:36.400 --> 00:56:37.679
I'm gonna give you back to my dear.

00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:47.599
We're all he's just we're in the middle of this podcast, and uh he's interviewing me, and I, you know, I don't I've written a bunch of books, uh, I've written a few books about Iran.

00:56:47.679 --> 00:56:52.400
Uh I of course spent a lot of time there uh in our our homeland.

00:56:52.639 --> 00:56:55.280
Um yes, yes.

00:56:55.440 --> 00:56:57.199
Where are you from in Iran?

00:56:57.599 --> 00:56:58.400
I'm from Tehran.

00:56:58.719 --> 00:56:58.880
Okay.

00:56:59.119 --> 00:57:00.320
I'm from Tehran, yeah.

00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:04.559
And but I have to tell you, you are in the most beautiful company that you can.

00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:12.480
It's he's a he's been a friend of many, many years and very consistent and always willing to help a good man.

00:57:13.199 --> 00:57:13.920
I love it.

00:57:14.159 --> 00:57:14.719
I love it.

00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:18.800
You you you you know you know who's even more beautiful than John Jay?

00:57:19.119 --> 00:57:20.239
Is his wife.

00:57:20.559 --> 00:57:22.880
Oh, she's at a different level.

00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:26.559
Blake is just the most incredible human ever.

00:57:27.440 --> 00:57:29.199
She's got a good heart that's so doesn't have to be a good thing.

00:57:29.440 --> 00:57:29.840
Yes, yes.

00:57:30.320 --> 00:57:30.800
They're a beautiful.

00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:32.639
Oh, I wanted you guys to talk about each other.

00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:36.400
I didn't know I was on a speaker.

00:57:36.639 --> 00:57:37.679
Yeah, you're on speaker phone.

00:57:39.199 --> 00:57:42.320
No, but uh they are extraordinary people.

00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:49.119
And of course, his wife, she's from a great incredible pedigree and the most loving human being you meet.

00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:49.760
So they're gonna be able to do it.

00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:49.920
Okay.

00:57:50.559 --> 00:57:51.519
All right, I'll talk to you later.

00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:52.800
I love you, Papa Shakuli.

00:57:52.960 --> 00:57:53.360
Does he say that?

00:57:54.559 --> 00:57:55.519
Khili Koshbahta.

00:57:56.000 --> 00:57:57.440
Do you need to talk to me anymore?

00:57:57.679 --> 00:57:58.559
No, I'll call you later.

00:57:58.639 --> 00:57:59.199
I'll call you later.

00:57:59.440 --> 00:58:00.559
Okay, I'll give you a little bit of a little bit of a little bit.

00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:00.960
I love you.

00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:01.679
Bye-bye.

00:58:02.559 --> 00:58:02.880
Bye-bye.

00:58:03.199 --> 00:58:04.079
He's such a nice guy.

00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:09.119
I love you see, but this is like Iran, the people people always say to me, like, oh my gosh, Iran, whatever.

00:58:09.199 --> 00:58:14.079
And you know, you grow up with this notion of like Iran as the axis of evil and this and that and the other.

00:58:14.239 --> 00:58:21.840
And the reason I wrote the book I wrote is because Iranian people are so warm and loving.

00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:24.480
Yes, I mean, that's a great example.

00:58:24.800 --> 00:58:32.239
You know, I I tell people, I'm like, you know, I come from the land of like Hafez and Rumi, these amazing poets.

00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:41.360
And, you know, our teachers in India, they use Rumi all the time, the mystic poets, you know, and Shiraz, like the city of wine and love.

00:58:41.760 --> 00:58:45.119
Like it's this old, old culture, right?

00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:51.280
Persian, like it's this old, beautiful culture, and and there's this richness and this pride and the heritage.

00:58:51.360 --> 00:58:53.679
And and well, isn't it the original Garden of Eden?

00:58:53.920 --> 00:58:55.440
That's that's what that's what they say.

00:58:55.519 --> 00:59:02.480
You know, my name, pardis, means paradise because it was the and and in Hebrew, pardais means Garden of Eden.

00:59:02.800 --> 00:59:03.920
So, yeah, exactly.

00:59:04.239 --> 00:59:05.519
So I have to tell you one thing that he did.

00:59:05.599 --> 00:59:06.639
He's such a beautiful man.

00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:12.320
So he has been known for years and years and years, had this big thick mustache, big thick mustache.

00:59:12.719 --> 00:59:18.639
And my mom got brain cancer and she she died, and he said, I'm shaving my mustache off for your mom.

00:59:18.800 --> 00:59:20.800
And to him, and he it's never grown back.

00:59:21.199 --> 00:59:22.400
That was in 2011.

00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:22.960
Wow.

00:59:23.119 --> 00:59:25.039
And he's had a mustache since he was four years old.

00:59:25.199 --> 00:59:27.519
No, I mean, yeah, I know Iranians.

00:59:27.599 --> 00:59:28.000
Yeah, right.

00:59:28.159 --> 00:59:29.119
And he's like, isn't that wild?

00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:34.239
Like he did that, and I and it's so weird because it it means nothing, but it means everything at the same time.

00:59:34.400 --> 00:59:34.960
Do you know what I mean?

00:59:35.360 --> 00:59:37.440
Like I was just like, I can't believe he did that for my mom.

00:59:37.519 --> 00:59:38.320
Like it's amazing.

00:59:38.800 --> 00:59:39.760
Yeah, he's such a nice guy.

00:59:39.920 --> 00:59:40.079
Wow.

00:59:40.159 --> 00:59:41.199
So you've known him a long time.

00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:42.400
I've known him a really long time.

00:59:42.639 --> 00:59:43.440
How did you meet him?

00:59:43.519 --> 00:59:45.280
Uh uh How did I meet him?

00:59:46.480 --> 00:59:47.119
I don't know.

00:59:47.360 --> 00:59:50.400
Oh, um, I know that he was a he's like a big time real estate agent.

00:59:50.639 --> 00:59:52.639
Okay, like here or here.

00:59:52.719 --> 00:59:53.440
He lives in Chandler.

00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:54.719
Oh wow, I mean he's a real estate agent.

00:59:54.880 --> 00:59:59.599
I mean, he's he sold Larry Fitzgerald's house, he bought him house, he sold a bunch of our friends.

01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:03.440
Around this and then wow, I wonder how I met him.

01:00:03.519 --> 01:00:05.360
That is a great that's how long ago it was.

01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:06.800
He's just kind of always been in my life.

01:00:07.039 --> 01:00:07.360
I love it.

01:00:07.519 --> 01:00:08.000
Does he meditate?

01:00:08.239 --> 01:00:09.199
You should invite him on the meditation.

01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:10.159
I don't think he can meditate.

01:00:10.320 --> 01:00:10.800
That dude is a level.

01:00:11.119 --> 01:00:13.199
I've never seen that's the most calm I've ever heard him, by the way.

01:00:13.360 --> 01:00:16.400
I was expecting him to come out at a level like I love it.

01:00:16.480 --> 01:00:18.719
Well, I mean, I disarm him with the Persian.

01:00:18.880 --> 01:00:19.199
Yeah, yeah.

01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:19.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:00:20.079 --> 01:00:21.840
But but he should meditate with us.

01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:26.079
Because you know, sometimes that big energy gives us energy too.

01:00:26.239 --> 01:00:35.119
I mean, that's why I like meditating with the group because you know, somebody comes on with this big, great energy, and then you're like, wow, like you really feel it when you're when you're meditating.

01:00:35.440 --> 01:00:35.920
That's interesting.

01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:36.480
Should I invite him?

01:00:36.639 --> 01:00:37.119
Yes, it would be a good idea.

01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:39.360
But then I'd have to send him the link to what you guys do.

01:00:39.599 --> 01:00:40.000
I'll send him.

01:00:40.079 --> 01:00:40.800
Yeah, I'll send it to you.

01:00:40.880 --> 01:00:41.440
You send it to you.

01:00:41.519 --> 01:00:42.159
I'll make you in.

01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:42.960
Yeah, I'll send it to him.

01:00:43.199 --> 01:00:43.519
It's great.

01:00:43.679 --> 01:00:44.079
It's great.

01:00:44.159 --> 01:00:50.159
Sometimes, you know, you you you get insights about somebody without uttering a single word.

01:00:50.320 --> 01:00:51.039
Like it's amazing.

01:00:51.119 --> 01:00:58.719
You know, I have friends that I've met through this meditation, and we sit there basically not talking to each other for 28 minutes every morning.

01:00:58.880 --> 01:01:04.800
And I feel like I know them more deeply than friends of mine that I talk to all the time.

01:01:05.119 --> 01:01:05.679
That's so interesting.

01:01:05.760 --> 01:01:06.400
That's what I was saying.

01:01:07.119 --> 01:01:07.360
Yeah.

01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:08.719
Yeah, I feel it.

01:01:09.039 --> 01:01:11.519
And I don't think like there's some of you guys don't miss, right?

01:01:11.599 --> 01:01:14.719
You guys just you guys do a live every morning, right?

01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:15.760
Big group.

01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:16.159
Correct.

01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:20.079
Sometimes for whatever reason she can't make it live and she'll do it right after on her own.

01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:20.639
Me too.

01:01:20.719 --> 01:01:20.800
Yeah.

01:01:20.880 --> 01:01:21.199
Oh, you do?

01:01:21.760 --> 01:01:22.159
I'm the same.

01:01:22.239 --> 01:01:23.840
I I have I have it downloaded.

01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:36.880
And if I can't make it because I got kids, you know, there's times when I gotta get the kids to school early or what have you, or if I'm traveling and the time doesn't line up, I always I haven't missed a single day of meditating in 18 months.

01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:38.400
Is that when you started 18 months ago?

01:01:38.480 --> 01:01:38.800
Yeah, yeah.

01:01:39.119 --> 01:01:39.280
Yeah.

01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:39.760
That's great.

01:01:39.920 --> 01:01:41.199
It's trained transformed my life.

01:01:41.440 --> 01:01:42.400
Have you been to Aikham?

01:01:42.800 --> 01:01:43.599
No, not yet.

01:01:43.920 --> 01:01:44.800
Or the one in Sweden?

01:01:45.199 --> 01:01:46.239
There's one in Sweden I've been to.

01:01:46.559 --> 01:01:47.039
I went this summer.

01:01:48.079 --> 01:01:49.039
Yeah, I went this summer.

01:01:49.199 --> 01:01:50.079
Um, it was beautiful.

01:01:50.159 --> 01:01:50.800
You'll love this.

01:01:50.880 --> 01:01:56.320
The the monastery where they do it at was uh funded and owned by ABBA.

01:01:56.960 --> 01:01:58.159
I talked to them about that.

01:01:58.400 --> 01:01:59.760
Is that the funniest thing ever?

01:02:00.559 --> 01:02:00.880
Yeah.

01:02:01.119 --> 01:02:03.599
The the space was really beautiful.

01:02:03.760 --> 01:02:08.719
Um, you know, and it and it gives you that time to to go inwards.

01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:12.880
You know, it's it definitely felt like the climb of the mountain.

01:02:12.960 --> 01:02:14.719
It definitely felt like, okay.

01:02:15.039 --> 01:02:16.159
Yeah, they're beautiful people.

01:02:16.400 --> 01:02:18.719
I did this thing for them in um I was on it.

01:02:18.880 --> 01:02:19.599
Oh, you were on that thing?

01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:20.320
Yeah, I listened to it.

01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:22.000
You were great.

01:02:22.239 --> 01:02:23.440
So they asked me to do it again.

01:02:23.760 --> 01:02:24.639
You should definitely do it.

01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:27.119
I gotta tell you, so I had my mom watching that, right?

01:02:27.280 --> 01:02:32.880
And you know, my mom is like, you know, she is who she is, and she gets, you know, she has her her thoughts and her judgments.

01:02:32.960 --> 01:02:36.159
But every time you came on, she's like, Great, he's back.

01:02:37.519 --> 01:02:38.639
She loved listening to you.

01:02:39.440 --> 01:02:40.480
And I told her, I said, I know him.

01:02:40.559 --> 01:02:45.039
I said, I meditate with his wife, and she just loved every time you came on, she was just so excited.

01:02:45.280 --> 01:02:46.960
So, how did how did I do this interview?

01:02:47.119 --> 01:02:48.079
Was I okay with this interview?

01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:48.880
Are you kidding me?

01:02:48.960 --> 01:02:50.159
You're like best.

01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:52.400
I can't believe I was so excited that you even want.

01:02:52.719 --> 01:02:54.079
I gotta tell you, I was nervous.

01:02:54.159 --> 01:02:57.679
I'm like, I am not as interesting as anybody who's been on his show.

01:02:57.920 --> 01:02:59.280
Are you out of your mind?

01:02:59.840 --> 01:03:06.800
Are you you the only person I know that's ever been in a shipping container is Dexter from the TV show Dexter?

01:03:06.960 --> 01:03:07.440
Totally.

01:03:08.159 --> 01:03:10.480
But has he carried horse sperm into a gun battle?

01:03:10.719 --> 01:03:13.360
No, so you smuggled horse spermin, you yourself?

01:03:14.400 --> 01:03:15.920
What your mother was like, get this over there.

01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:16.480
I need you to smoke.

01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:17.440
No, no, no, no.

01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:22.800
So I was with a group, I was with a group of women um who were helping to breed these horses.

01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:28.559
So actually, the oldest living breed of horses on the planet today are Caspian horses from Iran.

01:03:28.639 --> 01:03:28.719
Okay.

01:03:28.960 --> 01:03:30.320
I'm sure Dave knows about them.

01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:34.880
When you when you call him back, you tell him, in here, I think I have a Caspian horse around my neck right there.

01:03:34.960 --> 01:03:35.360
Oh, okay.

01:03:35.440 --> 01:03:35.679
Yeah.

01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:38.239
It's the oldest living breed of horses on the planet.

01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:41.679
Uh, Cornell horse genealogists have confirmed this.

01:03:41.840 --> 01:03:42.000
Okay.

01:03:42.320 --> 01:03:44.480
And they're known for their sure-footedness.

01:03:44.559 --> 01:03:47.760
And so, you know, they've been crossbred with all different kinds of horses.

01:03:47.920 --> 01:03:51.679
Well, there was a movie by Jerry Bruckheimer called Twelve Strong.

01:03:51.760 --> 01:03:52.639
Did you hear about this movie?

01:03:53.119 --> 01:04:08.079
It was about the American horse soldiers, American men who were first deployed into Afghanistan, and they defeated the Taliban shortly after 9-11 on horses because, of course, much of the terrain in Afghanistan you cannot navigate on a tank.

01:04:08.880 --> 01:04:14.559
And so uh at a certain point, we know the war was going on and on and on, and you know, there we just needed more horses.

01:04:14.719 --> 01:04:25.920
And um that particular group, you know, uh was getting a lot of the horses that had been trained by a group of women that my grandmother had helped to train.

01:04:26.079 --> 01:04:29.039
So it helped to smuggle from Iran to Afghanistan.

01:04:29.280 --> 01:04:31.840
But you had to keep the breeding of the horses.

01:04:32.400 --> 01:04:36.719
So you had to smuggle the sperm in and then get the horses pregnant and then breed.

01:04:38.079 --> 01:04:40.800
How many horses would like were there 30, 40 horses at a time?

01:04:41.679 --> 01:04:42.000
More, more.

01:04:42.320 --> 01:04:43.440
Oh, oh, born at a time.

01:04:43.519 --> 01:04:46.559
Well, yeah, I mean, you you could only impregnate, you know, so many.

01:04:46.639 --> 01:04:48.559
So you're just constantly doing it, right?

01:04:48.639 --> 01:04:50.239
Because they have to gestate and all of that.

01:04:50.480 --> 01:04:53.679
But what where were you when the sperm was collected?

01:04:53.840 --> 01:05:00.320
Like where what's the sperm was often collected in Iran and then smuggled over there to Afghanistan.

01:05:00.480 --> 01:05:00.719
Yeah.

01:05:01.039 --> 01:05:03.599
So those horses, those Caspian horses are happy.

01:05:03.840 --> 01:05:04.480
Yeah, sure.

01:05:04.559 --> 01:05:05.679
I mean, what horses aren't you?

01:05:05.840 --> 01:05:08.880
But they'd be like, no, like, all right, yeah, who's ready to collect the sample?

01:05:09.119 --> 01:05:09.599
Who's next?

01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:10.880
Next, the stallions.

01:05:11.039 --> 01:05:11.840
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:05:11.920 --> 01:05:17.920
Well, I mean, when they weren't just Caspian, they were all kinds of horses, but having a little bit of the Caspian in them, I think, helped them.

01:05:18.400 --> 01:05:19.280
So do you carry it?

01:05:19.360 --> 01:05:21.199
Is it like little tubes or is it like a bigger one?

01:05:21.360 --> 01:05:22.400
Oh, like vials, yeah.

01:05:22.639 --> 01:05:23.679
That's so crazy.

01:05:23.840 --> 01:05:24.079
I know.

01:05:24.800 --> 01:05:25.119
Totally crazy.

01:05:25.360 --> 01:05:28.800
You have about seven movies in you that I think could be blockbuster movies.

01:05:28.960 --> 01:05:35.440
Like, I want to when this podcast drops, yeah, I want to take clips and send it to certain people I know in the business because there this should be a movie.

01:05:35.599 --> 01:05:36.239
You should be a movie.

01:05:36.400 --> 01:05:37.679
Oh my god, I love you for that.

01:05:37.840 --> 01:05:39.119
From your mouth to God's ears.

01:05:39.280 --> 01:05:40.559
Seriously, this is like my dream.

01:05:40.960 --> 01:05:41.840
You gotta meet my sister.

01:05:42.000 --> 01:05:44.079
She's got the ears to the connection to all those things.

01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:45.280
I'd love to meet your sister.

01:05:45.519 --> 01:05:51.119
No, I mean, really, like the movie about the women um in Afghanistan, like the women who were actually training the horses.

01:05:51.199 --> 01:05:52.079
I mean, that should be a move.

01:05:52.480 --> 01:05:53.280
I wrote a book about this.

01:05:53.519 --> 01:05:54.639
Who would play you?

01:05:55.039 --> 01:05:59.679
Uh uh probably there's an Iranian actress, and she she's amazing.

01:05:59.760 --> 01:06:01.599
Her name's Gol Shifte Fadahani.

01:06:01.679 --> 01:06:03.119
She's an Iranian actor, she's been in a bunch of things.

01:06:03.280 --> 01:06:03.519
Oh, yeah.

01:06:03.599 --> 01:06:04.559
I've probably seen her at all though.

01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:06.800
You've probably seen her, and there's another one, Shoda Al Toshlu.

01:06:07.039 --> 01:06:08.639
She was in House of Sand and Fog.

01:06:08.800 --> 01:06:10.000
I think she was in 24.

01:06:10.079 --> 01:06:13.840
Like, yeah, there's a it's funny you say that because I was going mainstream Hollywood actress.

01:06:14.000 --> 01:06:15.119
Oh, who do you think should play me?

01:06:15.280 --> 01:06:17.840
Well, I can see like a Sandra Bullock, but I think she's a lot older now.

01:06:17.920 --> 01:06:20.000
But uh or I can see Natalie Portman playing you.

01:06:20.239 --> 01:06:20.719
Oh, maybe.

01:06:21.119 --> 01:06:23.679
Maybe but I also think Salma Hike, I wish.

01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:34.480
There's also like um like you'd probably you probably need an up-and-coming person, but they probably want to tie they probably have to tie a star to play like the guys.

01:06:34.559 --> 01:06:35.440
Yeah, something in the world.

01:06:35.599 --> 01:06:36.159
The guys, probably.

01:06:38.559 --> 01:06:38.800
Yeah.

01:06:39.360 --> 01:06:39.760
I don't know.

01:06:39.840 --> 01:06:40.639
It's really interesting.

01:06:40.719 --> 01:06:41.679
I really want to get involved in that.

01:06:42.079 --> 01:06:43.599
Oh my god, yeah, that would be a gift.

01:06:43.920 --> 01:06:57.519
Well, and I mean I'm writing two fiction books, which are one is a young adult novel, it's gonna be part of a series, and one is an adult novel, which is like sits at the intersection of sex, psychedelics, and the superconscious.

01:06:57.840 --> 01:07:01.039
Okay, so when you do that, you just got your laptop open and you just go off the top of your head.

01:07:01.119 --> 01:07:01.920
Is that how you write a book?

01:07:02.159 --> 01:07:05.360
Actually, in my case, a lot of it's based on my own experiences.

01:07:05.599 --> 01:07:07.519
A lot of it's based on what I observed.

01:07:07.760 --> 01:07:29.760
So it's actually more based on my own notes that of things that so, for instance, um, the young adult novel is about uh four, 16-year-olds, and they're in this stuffy elitist school where they're being suppressed, and there's this like evil hive mind trying to numb out their brains, and they discover a mystery school in Sedona that they're taken to by a herd of horses, right?

01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:32.320
So you can see some of those same themes there.

01:07:32.400 --> 01:07:40.239
And it's really about uh having an alternative education system that teaches you to trust yourself, that teaches you to harness your gifts and your powers.

01:07:40.320 --> 01:07:42.639
And they each have powers tied to an element.

01:07:42.719 --> 01:07:48.480
So one of them does hydroglyphics, she works with water, one of them is pyromancy, one of them is air, one of them is an earthworker.

01:07:48.800 --> 01:07:53.519
And they go to this mystery school and they're able to use their gifts and come back and save their classmates.

01:07:53.760 --> 01:08:01.920
The adult novel is a campus drama where it's set on a college campus after there's been a really terrible suicide.

01:08:02.239 --> 01:08:14.079
And the the the dean of the college is herself kind of dealing with all of the fallout while she's kind of going into these sort of trippy world of psychedelics.

01:08:14.320 --> 01:08:22.800
She finds out that there's a secret society, this underground secret society of male faculty that are kind of hazing male students, and that's what's leading to the suicide.

01:08:23.520 --> 01:08:23.760
Yeah.

01:08:24.319 --> 01:08:24.960
So these are the two.

01:08:25.600 --> 01:08:29.359
So when you write a book, you have in your head the beginning, middle, and end already.

01:08:29.840 --> 01:08:34.239
It's not like you sit down and just start going and then editing and going and editing.

01:08:34.640 --> 01:08:35.840
You outline, outline, outline.

01:08:35.920 --> 01:08:38.079
I mean, the biggest thing I say to write a book.

01:08:38.640 --> 01:08:39.520
Yes, definitely.

01:08:39.840 --> 01:08:46.640
So you don't go, like I always picture, like whenever I interview musicians, yeah, like a Taylor Swift or somebody, I always ask them, How do you write the songs?

01:08:46.800 --> 01:08:49.520
Like, do you get a yellow pad out and a pen and use right?

01:08:49.760 --> 01:08:54.079
Are you in a laptop and like I remember Taylor said one time she did it on her phone on her notes?

01:08:54.159 --> 01:08:54.399
Yeah.

01:08:54.640 --> 01:08:57.359
Um I can't remember who most of them yellow pad.

01:08:58.319 --> 01:08:58.800
That's me too.

01:08:59.039 --> 01:09:04.000
Oh, so you when you write your book, you're yellow, you're you're writing like all my outlines are are yellow, yellow pad.

01:09:04.159 --> 01:09:07.840
And then I have I cut out, or I actually use index cards, to be honest.

01:09:08.000 --> 01:09:14.319
I write scenes on index cards, I write characters and I write scenes on index cards, and then they're put up all around my office.

01:09:14.640 --> 01:09:16.880
And then at some point you got to put it on the computer?

01:09:17.119 --> 01:09:23.039
Uh well, you outline, outline, outline, and then you type up your outline because I will usually share it with my agent.

01:09:23.199 --> 01:09:25.760
So I send it to my agent and I'm like, here's where I'm going with this.

01:09:26.000 --> 01:09:26.640
What do you think?

01:09:26.720 --> 01:09:30.000
And she'll be like, a little more here, a little more here, a little more here.

01:09:30.159 --> 01:09:36.000
Um, like for instance, in one version of the adult book I'm writing, which is called Sexistential Tripping.

01:09:36.159 --> 01:09:39.279
In one version of Sexistential Tripping, they go and there's a shaman.

01:09:39.439 --> 01:09:40.720
She's like, We're cutting the shaman.

01:09:40.880 --> 01:09:44.399
So I was like, okay, you know, so what gives her the credibility to do that?

01:09:44.560 --> 01:09:45.119
You're the talent.

01:09:45.920 --> 01:09:46.960
She's an amazing agent.

01:09:47.439 --> 01:09:48.880
Is she an agent or an editor?

01:09:49.199 --> 01:09:49.920
She's both.

01:09:50.000 --> 01:09:52.960
You know, I would think like to I'd be like, You're the talent.

01:09:53.039 --> 01:09:54.239
I want to hear your story.

01:09:54.399 --> 01:09:56.239
Who's this person that's editing that out?

01:09:56.560 --> 01:10:00.720
Well, the problem is that the book publishing industry, as you know, is a tough industry right now.

01:10:00.960 --> 01:10:01.199
Right.

01:10:01.279 --> 01:10:03.840
Um, I mean, young adult is is better than other ones.

01:10:04.159 --> 01:10:05.119
But how many books have you sold?

01:10:05.439 --> 01:10:05.920
Is there a number?

01:10:06.000 --> 01:10:07.279
Do you know the number overall?

01:10:07.600 --> 01:10:09.760
You've written 10 books, like have hundreds.

01:10:09.920 --> 01:10:12.000
I mean hundreds of thousands.

01:10:12.319 --> 01:10:13.039
Like tons, yeah.

01:10:13.119 --> 01:10:14.079
I mean, I don't I don't keep track.

01:10:14.159 --> 01:10:15.199
Honestly, I don't keep track.

01:10:15.439 --> 01:10:18.800
But so like when you in the book, there's so obviously there's sex in the book.

01:10:19.039 --> 01:10:20.560
Uh the new one, the fiction one?

01:10:20.640 --> 01:10:21.039
Oh yeah.

01:10:21.279 --> 01:10:25.520
So that's gonna be like when we read when I read that, it's gonna be reading something that you experienced.

01:10:25.840 --> 01:10:26.640
Not necessarily.

01:10:26.720 --> 01:10:29.279
I mean, you you you base it on stuff that you experienced.

01:10:30.560 --> 01:10:33.520
Well, no, I mean, listen, some of it's but remember the horse worm.

01:10:34.079 --> 01:10:34.880
Well, exactly.

01:10:35.039 --> 01:10:37.760
But and remember, like, I observed sex parties, right?

01:10:37.920 --> 01:10:40.560
I observed all these things for years and years and years.

01:10:40.720 --> 01:10:52.319
And so, you know, sometimes it's based on something I've seen, or or a lot of the times the characters are for in the fiction novel, they're kind of composites of people that I've known, right?

01:10:52.479 --> 01:10:58.880
So there's a whole chapter and scene where they're at Burning Man, and she runs into like one of her students at Burning Man.

01:10:59.119 --> 01:10:59.920
Have you been a Burning Man?

01:11:00.000 --> 01:11:00.800
Yeah, of course.

01:11:02.479 --> 01:11:03.600
Who hasn't, right?

01:11:03.760 --> 01:11:09.119
But of course, you know, she's there, she's at Burning Man, she's like, you know, she's tripping on mushrooms, and she runs into one of our students.

01:11:09.199 --> 01:11:22.000
So, you know, like there's there, and that and that student is like, you know, that's a composite, or like it's the you know, you you sort of take people you've met along your along your lifetime and and you start to put them together into these characters.

01:11:22.159 --> 01:11:27.840
And for instance, for my young adult novel, a lot of it's I have a 15-year-old daughter, and you know, she's 15, 16.

01:11:28.000 --> 01:11:31.119
A lot of it's based on her and her friends, you know, and how they speak.

01:11:31.199 --> 01:11:32.880
And and I actually show it to them.

01:11:33.199 --> 01:11:33.920
Did you put that in the book?

01:11:34.079 --> 01:11:34.479
Oh my god.

01:11:35.039 --> 01:11:40.319
I'm like, um, is the whole world on the in on the six-seven joke, which by the way, I still don't understand it.

01:11:40.479 --> 01:11:42.560
Like, everyone's in on this joke, but what is it?

01:11:42.960 --> 01:11:45.680
Webster's actually put it in the dictionary now as a word six.

01:11:46.319 --> 01:11:46.560
Really?

01:11:46.720 --> 01:11:46.960
Yeah.

01:11:47.199 --> 01:11:53.359
It is uh it's it's an internet sensation, stupidity, yeah, but it's become a thing.

01:11:53.600 --> 01:11:54.800
I mean, we gotta learn it.

01:11:54.880 --> 01:11:55.600
Yeah, it's a thing.

01:11:55.840 --> 01:11:57.039
Well, thank you for being on my podcast, Bob.

01:11:57.359 --> 01:11:58.239
Thank you for having me.

01:11:58.319 --> 01:11:59.199
This was so much fun.

01:11:59.279 --> 01:12:00.079
I really appreciate it.

01:12:00.239 --> 01:12:01.359
You're awesome.

01:12:05.920 --> 01:12:07.520
Okay, so welcome to our podcast.

01:12:07.760 --> 01:12:14.159
This is a little bit different today because this podcast is a spin-off of our radio show.