MERCYME LEAD SINGER TELLS THE VOICE BEHIND THE SONG

Welcome And Concert Invite

unknown 0:00

Funny, funny, funny, funny, funny, funny, funny, funny, funny, funny, funny, funny.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Okay, so welcome to our podcast. This is a little bit different today because this podcast is a spin-off of our radio show. Just so excited you're here. It's freaking me out. Wow. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

I was happy to be invited. This is awesome. Glad it worked out.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Do you have a show in town tonight?

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Yeah, we're playing at uh wherever the hockey team used to play. The arena? Oh, wow. The hockey arena?

SPEAKER_00 0:40

What what time when what time is that show?

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Uh seven o'clock. Starts at seven. We go on about nine.

unknown 0:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

You're welcome to come if you want.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Oh my. You know, it's funny. So this is such a weird moment. My wife is a huge fan of yours, right? Huge. Um, and when I told her you were coming on this podcast, she was in her office and she immediately went to your music. And she goes, she plays, Mercy to me. I want this play to my funeral. Which is right, right, right, right. But she How about before then? She um when I told her you wouldn't you're gonna be here, she's actually in Paris. Oh wow. And she went there, she got there this morning. Uh a friend of ours, their daughter, is at the Cordon Blue School. Okay. And so she couldn't be here today because she would have uh she comes to most of my the tapies of these podcasts. And so actually, when you say come tonight, I actually could go. You could rub it in that you went to the show. We did a segment, we did a segment on my radio. So I do a radio show. Yeah, and we did a segment on my radio show today because Coachella's this weekend, and there's a girl on my show that wants to go to Coachella. She can't get anyone to go with her show, she's gonna go by herself. And we did a segment of what have you ever done by yourself that most people don't do by themselves, right? And it's funny, I didn't tell this story, but in 1988 I went and saw George Michael by myself. Really? Yeah, by myself. I wore white jeans and a red shirt. I don't know why I remember that. I parked far away. Uh so that'd be kind of wild to get like full circle that I went to a Mercy Me concert by myself. Well, you're welcome to come.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

So we'll let Merkle know he'll take care of it. Put me down?

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Holy smokes, put you down either way, but you decide not to come.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

I get up at three o'clock in the morning, dude. I would love to go. Put me down.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

I'm a little anxious going alone myself. So if you don't come, I understand.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Now I'm gonna take about me real quick just because it's all this is a I made a New Year's resolution. This is so crazy you guys put me on the spot, but you're really not. I made a New Year's resolution to say yes to more invitations more often because I turned on so much stuff, and this is so right there. This is so right in there. It's almost in if you don't come. Now I'll go. The ticket will be there.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

One please. Yeah, that's right. Leave the other chairs empty around you.

When A Song Becomes A Funeral Hymn

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Everyone else is in Paris. Yeah. Oh my gosh, that'd be so you know. I'm in. I'll do it. I'm in. I'm in. And thank you for the invitation. Thank you very much. Of course. Uh I'm I'm so grateful you're here. I I I I, you know, I obviously, you know, the song, the song, the one that my wife once played her funeral.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Funeral song, yeah. Is that common? That people very common. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's usually, I think it's made me an introvert over the years because most people that want to get to you to talk to you, it's not like I'm a big fan. It's like the most tragic story of someone who's passed away or how the song was played at their funeral. But uh, but yeah, I mean, that's when it I mean, that's why I wrote after my dad died. And uh, and you know, just didn't realize it was gonna impact people the way that it has.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

But it also is a song that like heals, right? It's not like like so I'm one of these guys. So I do I do a radio show, but I never really listened to the words of songs or what they mean, you know. So like I remember I saw an interview, you remember the band REM? Of course, yeah. Uh that song, This One Goes Out, the The One I Love, and everyone thought it was a romantic song. Right, right. But then Michael Stipe's like, that's not. It's a breakup song, it's a terrible song. Right. I was like, what? So I never listened to the words, you know. But when you listen to the words, of I can only imagine, yeah, is it it's like it can be taken different ways. Like it was written, but it was written from you, the perspective of what?

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Uh it was well, my dad died when I was uh, let's see, I was about to turn 19 and back in 91, he passed away with cancer. And um, and so I grew up in church and uh two things happened. We were leaving the gravesite, my grandmother said something like, I can only imagine what your dad's saying right now. And for some reason I got obsessed with that phrase. Like, like you know, when kids are whether they're practicing their autograph or writing on whatever they get their hands on, I would always write that phrase down. And uh I didn't write the song until uh 99, so eight years later. But uh, but in the meantime, I'd started a band, and one of the things that was said after the funeral, somebody said, you know, if your dad could choose, he'd rather be in heaven than here. And I appreciate the sentiment, but for a 18, 19 year old, it kind of pissed me off, to be honest with you. It's like what's so great about God that he would choose that over me. Because my dad was an awful person until he got his life right. He he was diagnosed with cancer when I was a freshman in high school and um and just fell in love with Jesus and he completely transformed. By the time he passed away, he was like my best friend and the dad that I always wanted, like genuinely my best friend. It was a complete transformation. So for them to say he would choose God over you, I was like, man, I just got the dude that I wanted my whole life. Don't don't tell me that. So a lot of the questions in I Can Only Imagine originally were me like, all right, God, what's so great about you? Like, why would I be speechless? Why, you know, just that's kind of where it came from. But over those years of dwelling on that thought, by the time 99 came around, I was trying to finish a last song for an independent record. And every page had I can only imagine written on it. Couldn't find a blank page in my journal notebook. I was like, all right, I get the, I get it, I get it. And so I just decided to try to make that into a song. And so all those questions I'd spent years on, I understood it then. My relationship was in a much different place at that point spiritually, and so they did come from a sincere place, but originally it was me kind of being ticked, like why why would someone say that to me? By 99, I got it. I'm like, and and I think when I say it's written for my dad, it's not a, you know, I'm gonna miss you, dad, and all this kind of stuff. It's just uh, you know, I think it's it's not dogmatic, it's not shoving anything down people's throats. It's wondering the same thing. I think I think every human at some point wonders, like, there's gotta, is there something more? And maybe that's why it's it's resonated, because it's not forcing anything on anybody, it's just asking the questions.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

You know, so the the way I kind of do this podcast is I I I try to like not research you. Sure. Because then people go, tell me more. I know your dad died. Tell me about you. I don't want you know, I like I like it like uh if I was like on an airplane ride and you were sitting next to me and we had an hour flight to San Diego, and by the time we land, we know a lot about each other. Right. Um, so like like I'm a dad. I I have three boys, yeah, and for some reason, dad stories like that, like that back, like gets me, gets me, you know. It reminds me, you remember are you a George Strait fan? Yeah. Freaking um Forever Amen. Oh, yeah. Not Forever Amen.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Randy Travis, but I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

That's that's one that was that's for my wife. The uh the the father song, I got sent home from school today with the shiner on my eye. You don't have to. Oh yeah, yeah. What's the name of the thing? Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. Uh it's a day without it. Anyway, it's about him and his dad, and it freaking just made me cry. Right. And so, like now that I know the story behind that song, uh, I feel like it's gonna are you a dad?

SPEAKER_01 7:32

I am. I have five kids. I've got uh three boys, two girls, boy, girl, boy, girl, boy. Hold of the boys, or I'll hold all of them. My uh oldest Sam, who's opening for us tonight. Uh he's 24. He just signed a record deal. And wow. Yeah. Sam's 24, Gracie's 20, 21, Charlie's 20, Sophie is 17, and Miles is 15. Wow. Yeah, yeah. And two of my boys, my Sam is opening, and Charlie is out on the road, is you know, part of the crew. He plays drums with Sam about half the time. And yeah, they they they're they're obsessed with music, which I love.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

That's great. Is Sam a solo artist or part of the band?

SPEAKER_01 8:08

He is. He goes by Sam Wesley, which is a middle name. Oh yeah, he watched a lot of people figure out who I was off the road. And he's like, I don't want that. I'll use my middle name. And it he wanted his own lane, which I appreciate.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

You know what? When you write a song, like I can only imagine, you know, the very beginning was like ding, ding, ding. Where do you come up with that?

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Uh I mean, I it was just uh we were goofing off in the studio, and I had the lyrics written and had the idea and was with the band, and uh I usually work with the rest of the band, come with the music, and they had it as this real fast song, and it wasn't right. I didn't know what right was, but it wasn't gonna be a fast song. And so we tried and tried and tried, and we had to be out of the studio at a certain time. And so we kind of gave up, and I literally just ran my fingers across the piano, and then our piano player who actually plays named Jim, he was like, Oh, that's cool, and he started going with it. And that's I mean, that's that's how it happens. It wasn't planned, really. Just I thought it was cool.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

And that's how those things like uh when I you know, I'm a big U2 fan. Yeah, yeah. How they tell you how the song started, and they kind of like that. I mean, that's were you filming anything? Is that the documentary?

SPEAKER_01 9:15

No, man, we barely had flip phones back then.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

That's right, that's right. Well, who are some of your musical like inspirations?

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Well, I have an older brother, and uh my my favorite band of all time is ELO, like as the first band I was ever like they were before the Beatles for me. Like first time I heard Don't Bring Me Down, I was like, what is happening to my body right now? I loved it so much. And it was like, I'm it may have been like a Casey K Some thing. I don't know. We used to try to record it and try to record it, but when the commercial, right when the commercial ended, yeah, yeah, yeah. All that stuff. I'm 53.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

I tried to tell that story to so many people like you had the and you get always get Casey in the in the in the countdown, and then when you play back, you kind of like that was whatever, whatever. Yeah, yeah. American top 40. Yes, totally.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Keep your feet on the ground, you reach for the stars. But man, if you could nail right when they stopped talking and get the song, you thought you did something pretty big. But so I used to try to record all those, and I I guess my brother introduced me to ELO back then. And then during that time, I I mean, the you know, it's ELO, the Beatles. My mom's first album she ever had was like Leo Say or You Made Me Feel Like Dancing. Oh wow. And then we had this with the band, we do it every once in a while. It's like, what's your first like I don't know how far back you go, but like your first LP or your first cassette that you ever got. We were just doing this the other day. My first LP that I ever bought with my like this is gonna totally age me, but with my own money was uh uh Funky Town by Lips Incorporated, and then a freeze frame J. Goss Band. Oh my gosh. And then my first cassette, I think, was Kiss Love Gun or Destroyer. I can't remember. My brother got one, I got the other.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

I had uh uh On the Radio by Donna Summer as a 45. Yeah, yeah. And then Lionel Richie Can't Slow Down.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Oh man, yeah, that was great. And then my first oh gosh, okay. So my then in high school, let's see, was I in high school? I graduated in '91. So I think uh my first uh CD I ever bought was Huey Lewis and the News Sport.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Is that uh you know, I put together this workout playlist, yeah, and I freaking love this Huey Lewis song, the one that goes, I was walking. Uh Do You Believe in Love? Yeah, is the album?

SPEAKER_01 11:18

That's uh that's the one right before. This one had I Want a New Drug and Oh, One. That one, like this was their one that blew up. Sport was their biggest one, but Do you believe in love was the one right before that?

SPEAKER_00 11:27

Do you ever do covers? Uh we do, yeah, we do.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Just for fun, like hey, here's a Yeah, yeah, we've done uh it usually starts in sound check. Like we've done Streets Have No Name and Mr. Blue Sky and walk back down. And yeah, we do. It's just whatever comes to mind. We're like, that was fun, let's do it again. We'll do it until somebody's ticked off about it. Wow.

unknown 11:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

So how does it happen? How do you go? How do you get like would you call yourself a a Christian rock band?

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm a Christian band. I don't know how rock we are.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

But how does how do you go like just no matter what format you are, to get discovered, to get a record deal? Like where are you seen? How does it happen?

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Man, I mean, it's it's different now, but when we started, we started the band in 94, so it's been 32 years. And um, and we didn't get we didn't sign until probably 99, 2000. But for the Christian band, it's singing in church or doing church camps. I know it sounds kind of corny, but there weren't any bars or anything or clubs you could play in.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

So we're 94 you were Mercy Me?

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Yes, is when we were it we started Mercy Me in 94, and then for six years we were independent. And we'd play every church camp every summer, and we'd play every you know, church event after a Friday night high school football game, whatever they, wherever they would have us, we would go. And then um, and then at some point, then it'd be word would get around, like you know, word of mouth, there wasn't anything to go viral. There was no, you know. Um, I think right before we signed, I don't know when YouTube uh officially showed up, but um, well, no, that was that was definitely after we were signed. I know that the biggest thing that happened with us is whenever we would uh Is there like a I know I'm trying to I'm trying to be professional, but what's that noise?

SPEAKER_00 12:59

You hear that noise? Like an alarm or a yeah, leave this all in.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

I love this stuff. We um back then uh from 94 to 99, if we sold, we had we would make our own albums and uh this big house we lived in because our keyboard player had enough knowledge of recording that we were dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

You all lived in the same house?

SPEAKER_01 13:22

We did, yeah, yeah. And we started in Oklahoma City.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Well, you know what's funny about that is I learned I remember hearing Casey Caseum, the band Chicago, they all lived in one house.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

I believe it. It's the only way you can survive, man.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

But I got that from Casey Caseum. And it's just stuck in the back of my head until you said that's great. So I must have heard that in 1980.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Yeah, we tried, we got together and wanted to find a place to live, and we found literally an abandoned like daycare center. It was like a big house that was turned into like had the half doors and the like waist-high coat racks and stuff, and we convinced the owner who was in California that if we could clean it up, could we live there until they sold it? And so we lived in this big weird preschool looking schoolhouse, and one end was all of our recordings to ADATs and soundboard and stuff, and we live in the other, and so we made these albums. If we sold a thousand CDs in a year, that was enough to kind of pay the rent, like it wasn't much. And uh, and then uh in '99, I we had our last independent record. I wrote we we need one more song, and that's when I wrote I Can Only Imagine, which went on our independent album. And that year, uh we ended up selling like 160,000 units out of the back of our car and uh when it was normally about a thousand a year, which you know it's like twenty bucks a pop. Like it was we were like, man, we what is going on? And we had we had no idea it was because of just that song. We thought But how does that song get picked up? Like, how does it work? It's it's just it people started passing it around.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

And you haven't changed it. Yeah, that was the record the recording we hear nowadays?

SPEAKER_01 14:49

We did re-record it for the the album, the the national release, but nothing about the song changed. The same arrangement, just better quality. Because it these weren't great recordings. Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Is the bootleg still around?

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Yeah, it's around. The album's called The Worship Project. It's still, you can find on YouTube and stuff like that. But like, for example, we were selling so much, and we thought we didn't know it was that one song. We thought, man, six years of hard work. You know, the names gotten around, we're doing a lot of events, and so maybe that's it. And then uh um we got a phone call one day um while we were, I think we were in Iowa somewhere, and we we'd shared one cell phone. That's all we could afford. Since we're living together, we got one cell phone.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Are you married at this point?

Amy Grant Calls And Record Deal

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Uh at I am actually, I am married at this point. Yeah. We uh, because I got married in '97. And um, and so we had a had our phone, and so I get this phone call and I answer it because we're on break or whatever, in between, we're doing these sessions all day. And this person goes, Hey, is this Bart? I was like, Yeah, he goes, Hey, this is Amy Grant. And uh, and I was like, whatever. And I hung up on her. And uh, she calls back, she goes, Don't hang up, this is really Amy Grant. And I'm a huge fan, I was grew up a huge fan, but I'm like, there's I've never I no, we're not running those circles. And she said, My manager, somebody gave her your independent record, and she was looking to make an album. So her manager, instead of trying to tell Amy you need to record this, just put it in her CD player in her car and kind of set it up for it to start playing when she got in. She's because I listened to it about 20 times in a row and she goes, I really want to record this song. And at the time we had no intentions of signing because after selling that many albums, we were actually on salary, we were doing pretty good, and we didn't want to mess that up. The dream was to sign, but it just wasn't it, you know, it's we had tried once before and it failed miserably. And so we're like, I think we're good. And so I just after talking to my wife and the guys, was like, man, I mean, like if I ever have kids, they'll go to college if Amy's doing this. And so we told her yes. And so, because of that, word started getting around that because for her, I want to say she had just uh either got a divorce or was about to marry Vince Gill. I can't remember the time frame.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Yeah, she was married to Tom Chapman. So Gary Chapman. Gary Chapman, Gary Chapman, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

And they got divorced, and I think she was about to start marry Vince or whatever. Or maybe she had no, she I think it was they were dating or whatever, but she this is her big comeback. Like El Shaddai was her big song back in the day. So they were saying this was her next El Shaddai. So word got around Nashville that we were the guys that wrote it, and so we started getting record deals based off, like they were just like, hey, we're just gonna say from the writers of Amy Grant's Smash Hit, here they are. And so we got offers, and so uh we ended up signing a record deal. And um and with the goal was Amy would finish her record, it'd be huge, and we'd follow on her coattails. And then Amy took like a freaking year and a half or two years, she's the slowest person on the planet to make a record. So we had finished our album and it was time to release, and she was nowhere near it. And we're like, what are we doing? Like, this is and we're like, well, plan B, we're gonna release and see what happens. And and we were allowed to make a B-side version of Imagine on our album, but it wouldn't be our single, it was hers to run with. So we released some other single. It was awful. I mean, it tanked, it was terrible. We were selling less records than we did when we were independent, and now we're giving up half the money or more.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Stressing?

Top 40 Radio And The Fitz Story

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Oh, stressing big time. And so we had just that's our manager, Brickle. We had just we convinced him to sign with us right before we signed the record deal. And um, and we were like, what have we done? Like we just thought everything was going wrong. And so the next plan was to first single didn't work, let's try the next one. And during that time, Brickle reached out to Amy's manager and said, Hey, just double checking, are y'all ever gonna be done? Like anytime now. And at some point, Amy ended up getting on the phone and saying, Hey, I think you guys need to take this song back, like it's gonna change your lives. And wow, and you know, uh her her manager wasn't thrilled, but she just was like, and they had been testing her song around, and a lot of these stations had played our independent version already. And they were well, actually, I don't say a lot, literally two cities, Birmingham and Spokane, for whatever reason, we our our version was Song of the Year before we ever signed. And it was like those are the only cities for whatever reason they checked with. And they were like, that was our song of the year last year. And uh and so Amy was like, I think we, I don't think this is we can't stop. This train's already moving. And so she gave it back to us and we scrambled. Back then it would be you would burn CDs and send them out to radio stations. And so this was like a Thursday night, you know, they played drop the ads, the songs go to ads on Friday. Right. We spent all night calling stations saying, Don't don't play the next single, give us a week, we've got something else for you. And so we burned CDs, sent Imagine out, and it went number one, you know, pretty quickly, and the album went platinum and and did its whole thing and ran its course in the Christian market. And so it was like, man, this is we never dreamed it was this was gonna happen. So it was time for our next album. So we were promoting our second album called Spoken For, and this was after 9-11. And while we're promoting that album, I get a phone call. I live in Dallas, and um a friend of mine goes, Hey, you need to turn on uh Wild 100. So there's this morning show called Fitz and Big Gay Steven in the morning. Fitz was my stunt guy.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

No, he wasn't. Yeah. I used to Are you serious? Yeah. I did radio in Houston and I hired Fitz when he was 20 years old. I talked to him last week.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Are you serious? He's still one of my like I mean, he changed. He changed our lives.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Wow. He's a great singer, too. He's 6'8. Yeah, he's a 6'9.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

Yeah, I think he's doing like country the countdown, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:29

He does a country countdown, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

So uh, so so Fitz and Big Gay Stephen of the Morning on Wild 100. I I and I was like, you're there's no way. And so I get I and I'm in living in Dallas, so I turn it on, and all I hear Fitz say is stop calling, we'll play it again in a minute. And for the next three or four hour show, imagine's the only song they played. And it would be they'd play it and they would, and maybe because 9-11 wasn't that long before, people were calling them in tears, like, thank you. And what I understand happened was when Fitz told me later was they were doing this truth or dare kind of uh Howard Stern kind of almost perverted idea of people calling in and doing gross stuff. And someone called in and dared them to play, I can only imagine. And he was like, What are you talking? No, that's not that's not the point. And their own fans kind of called him out, like, what do you mean you won't do it? And he goes, We don't have a copy of it. And then his producer got him Tony Wolf, I believe. Tony.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Tony was like, uh, I think I I he I think he said somebody's dropping a copy off. And what Tony told me later was he was secretly going to seminary, but didn't tell anybody because he thought he'd get fired if they knew he was going to seminary. So he had the album in his car. He went down, brought it up, and they played it, and then it and they were one of the first stations that started doing the whole you could get on the internet and fans would vote for their top five, like you know, and and so I'll never forget. So we ended up being number one for about a couple of months behind. It was us and in the club by 50 Cent was number two. That's the two songs in a J Lo L O Kul J song, whatever that would have been, were the ones. And uh, and and and Fitz was like, he was so I mean, he told me he got so excited because he was like, dude, no one's ever called to thank me for playing a song. It's usually like play more Eminem or whatever. And he just got excited about it and started calling people left and right because he was like, he got all excited about man, there was a day like Wolfman Jack where you'd lock the door and play a whole album. And so our label's like, I'm not sure what to do with this. Like, we're a Christian deal. Like, this shouldn't be working. And so we had the idea. We started burning album of the song, sent it to every top 40 station and said, play it once. If you don't get a response, throw it away. And everyone that actually played it, it went number one. Now, like LA, New York, they wouldn't play it. The biggest one was uh in uh whatever the station is in Orlando. They not only wouldn't they not play it, they just made fun of us nonstop. Oh. Like, I mean, it was daily. And they finally, they did this thing, this battle of the songs to where every week or whatever they would do, like take their number, their number one would be if it keeps winning, people would literally call in in real time and say, I love this. And and so they decided, just to humiliate us, that 50 Cent in the Club was their number one song. And they said, We're gonna go battle against this dumb Christian song. And they played it. I'll never forget them calling the label, going, It's the only time in their radio stage history to where Imagine got a hundred percent of the votes. Wow. And I'm not saying the song, the song's definitely not better, but I think he had ticked off so many people over the months of ragging on us that he set it up perfectly, and they became a big supporter and played, they played our next song after that, and they became it was really wild, but just a crazy time. I don't even know what the question was, but I'm just trying to fill you in on how all this came about.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

This is this is whatever the question was, this is what I want to hear.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

No, but it went like number three on the charts at one point. I think it was like, I think back then it would have been like uh it was top 10 on top 40, but it was like two or three on like the adult contemporary.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

You know, it's funny because I know I know that song. I feel like I've known that song my whole life, and I don't know if I've ever played it, but you know, I'm I'm sure I have a top 40 station.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Yeah. I never know. Like back then, the adult contemporary, it was us and like Michael Bublet had that song called Home. That was his pop deal. We couldn't beat him, but that was whatever time frame that was. It would have been probably 2002, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

But you dropped the song was created in 99, and in 2002 is when it just goes mass appeal.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

I think 2001 or 2 is when it went Christian charts and did everything. And then and it was probably what, oh four? 04 is when it went mainstream. At some point we got a FaceTime Fits.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Yeah, 04 it went mainstream, and so it sold another, like it went, it's it, it it went platinum again. I think it's five times platinum now. Is that right? I think that's right, yeah.

Royalties, Fatherhood, Dad's Last Check

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Four four times. So at what point at this point, I know this isn't the main objective, but I'm always curious to know at what point will all of a sudden you start seeing these incredible checks come in the mail? Yeah, and you're like, or is it just is it direct deposit or are you just getting checked? Is it like back then it was gonna check? Yeah. So you'd like you'd go to the mailbox and wow.

Abuse History And Breaking The Pattern

SPEAKER_01 25:01

Yeah, dude. I mean, well, I'll tell you, speaking of a father-son thing, you'll love is so uh we were pregnant with our first son with Sam. And um, so when my dad passed away in '91, he worked for the highway department, building bridges, stuff like that. And he has some kind of annuity or retirement thing. And he told me my brother, he goes, it really wasn't much. He goes, either you get a lump sum of like 70 something grand a piece, or I can break it down to like 600 bucks a month for the next 10 years. And he goes, I'm not letting you choose. I'm doing the monthly because if I give you the money, you'll have a boat with no lake in sight. And he was right, I would spend it in two seconds. So for 10 years, I got a check for 600 bucks, which allowed me to work on the band stuff when the other guys were working at Blockbuster or whatever. And it's not much, but when you don't have much, that's a pretty big check. So your dad stepped up a lot. He really did. Yeah, he did. And he he just thought ahead. I would have, I would have never, I would have all absolutely taken the lump sum. What what happened? Like uh he you said he made a change.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

What what happened?

SPEAKER_01 26:03

My dad was incredibly abusive my entire life.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Physically abusive?

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Yeah, he was. And um, he he wasn't, he never drank, never did drugs or whatever. And he um and my parents divorced and I was three, and I lived with my dad my whole time. Um me and my brother did, because they didn't want to separate us, and and my brother was involved in sports and everything. And so when my mom remarried and moved from Dallas to San Antonio, they decided to leave us there with him. And so, and and so about uh about the time that my dad, my brother, I was seventh grade, my brother went off to high school, he became like really abusive. Like, you know, he was the guy that would, you know, spank a little too hard and a little too long before, and you'd probably say, Well, I was probably being a bad kid, but it just kind of got worse the second my brother moved out of the house. And he loved my brother. I was kind of the the uh I wasn't a problem child, but I feel like he blamed like the divorce. He never said it, but I came through a dip I came during a difficult season of their marriage and stuff. And in fact, my dad was an all-American football player in college, and and he quit, uh, either got hurt or was homesick or whatever, but he he quit early to marry my mom and he went to SMU. And uh back then you didn't leave college early. You you you went to the pros after you graduated, you didn't pay enough. But he stayed in touch with his pla his friends, his buddies from the team, and so the 10-year reunion, he found out that Vince Lombardi's Packers were looking at drafting if he would have stayed in. Oh wow. So I'm named after Bart Starr, but not as a compliment, but as like a punch in the gut. Like it was like more sarcasm. That's kind of how where his mental state was. Was like I was a reminder of the dreams that broke the broken dreams. Jeez, Louis. Yeah, or at least that's what he told me during a fit of rage one time. I don't know if that's that's all I ever heard. And so, um, but anyway, so he was very abusive. My freshman year in college, he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and um, you know, which usually doesn't last long, and uh, we didn't know much about it. And at the time he ended up being the longest survivor they'd ever known. And for about five years he had it. And during for my freshman year in high school to freshman year in college, um, you know, I just I would have to, I would go in at night to check on him and he'd be asleep with a Bible on his chest, and he would always fall asleep that way. And just, you know, I grew up in church, but you know, I I don't know if I've ever seen a transformation to where he just he became a different person, whether it's fear or what's coming next, I don't know. But but um um I mean completely transformed to where not only like the guy's not laying a finger on me, but like and I think the coolest part was there was a time to where he'd have to have this shot that would take two or three hours to the middle of the night. It was like pushing caulk through his IV. And our nighttime nurse was killed in a car accident. And it was so hard on my dad that he said he didn't want another nighttime nurse. And so the daytime nurse, I went to like prom with her daughter or something, they were friends. She said, I'll do the paperwork and just she taught me how to do it and just told them that she was doing it. So, like broke the rules so that I became the guy giving me a shot.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

So my entire junior senior high school, I would sit with my dad awake for three hours a night. You know, when a teenager refused, didn't want to talk to anybody, and we just caught up on a lifetime of just conversations of to where he would tell me, you know, what's gonna happen afterwards to the girls I should or shouldn't be dating, and everything in between were these unbelievable conversations we had to where I just adored this man and was like, where have you been all my life? Wow. And so yeah, so it went from, you know, you know, I've always said like, and that was the time where I realized, man, if the gospel can change this dude who's a monster, then he could change anybody. And it changed my life. Like I was like, I'll I'll spend the rest of my life telling this story because I'm telling you what I saw before was unchangeable, is what it felt like. And to see him, like this is go from that to this is the man I want to be when I grow up.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Did he apologize?

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it was yeah, in every way you could.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Like, how can you tell these stories or this story and not like like I'm getting teared up? Oh when I talk about my dad, my dad passed away as well.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

And it's just tough for me to talk about without I maybe because I've told it thousands of times, you know, and and and it it it it gets a little bit easier. Right. Um that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Yeah, and but uh and yeah, so it's and also outside of like an interview like this, most interviews I do, they've heard that story at some point. So it's I I enjoy telling, I enjoy getting someone that doesn't know anything about us because it's fun to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

You have this really kind face. Have you ever been? Well, thanks.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Yes. Well, that's good. That would that would be hard to do my job otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Are you close with your brother still?

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Uh I yeah, I you know I am. Uh that's that's a weird, yes. Uh but it it when the first I can only imagine movie came out, which is the story of my childhood. Um, my brother's the one that convinced me I should do it because I was like, I mean, I'm not doing this, and because you got to. And it was somebody else that approached us about making the movie. And when it came out, I showed him the first the the movie alone. And uh he was like, Man, that was tough to watch. And I was like, Yeah, and that's all we ever said about. And that was probably about eight or nine months before the premiere of the movie. And a week before the premiere, he goes, Hey, I don't think I'm gonna come. I was like, why? And he goes, I just think you made all that stuff up. And I was like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, what? And my brother, when I was in seventh grade, my brother moved out. And and he doesn't, I think the hard part is when he left, the violence elevated greatly. I honestly think that he struggles with this idea that he might have been the one that protected me before then. And so I think it's a weird burden for him to bear thinking that this happened after he left. And so I've had a lot of grace with him, but I also realize that my brother is not his relationship, my relationship with Christ is totally different. My brother's not one that go to church or whatever. And and we've all these years said, my dad's an amazing man, and he would agree. We've always agreed in that. But where the story changes, I would have said that Jesus changed my dad. My brother would say, Nobody changed him, he was always amazing. And we didn't realize that until we saw the movie together. And I was like, Hold on, what are you talking about? Like he goes, I just that kind of that stuff didn't happen. I was like, dude, there was a time when we were little where you slammed the car door on my fingers and I came in crying, and my dad held you to the wall by your throat until you passed out. You don't remember that? And he honestly said, Well, I shouldn't have slammed the door on your fingers. Geez. And I was like, and that's the rub. Like, and I've gotten a lot of therapy because I probably would have been the same guy to say that. And and but it's impacted the way I'm a husband and a father now until I was able to connect. Oh, this is why I would dress things the way that I do, because this is how I was taught.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

And yeah, how do you handle your fits of rage or whenever you get angry?

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's uh, I hopefully I don't have many. I will I will say though, when I when I go through the drive-thru and my kids aren't ready to order, I can snap pretty good. That's the why is that so bad? And I think every dad deals with that. What do you mean you don't know if you want onions pulling out a line? You had 10 minutes to be ready. But yeah, it's been a I my biggest problem now is I'm so afraid still that there's just some weird part of me that's like what he used to be, that I don't hardly discipline at all. It drives my wife crazy. Like I let the kids get away with murder. I'm like, I'm their best friend. And she's like, let's be a dad, don't be a best friend. So you've never spanked? Oh no, I have, but it's been not much. Like uh, because I would always be like, oh man, what if like a shark tasting blood? Like, what if I snap and become this animal? Which is crazy to think, but that's how much real fear. Yeah, yeah. Like so I swore I'd never be that to my kids ever. And sometimes it's to a fault, man.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Like I spanked my oldest, uh, and I have horrible guilt about it. Never spanked the other two. And I was just like, I can't.

Turning The Story Into Film

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Yeah, I think my worst one was with my oldest son when they were little. We were at Disney, and him and his middle brother Charlie got in a fight. And I remember pushing Sam like onto like they had we had a fold-out couch that was out in the room, and so I pushed him onto the mattress to get away from him. And I thought it was the most horrific thing I've ever done to a human. And it was really probably the safest they could have done. And I remember the guilt I had, and the and it was more the look on his face, like what like he couldn't believe it. I just launched him onto the bed, and I was like, that's it. I've I've I'm I'm going to jail or something. Wait, how does the movie happen? Um who played you? Uh well, the movie happened about eight years before it released. Because it was a sequel, right? Yeah, it just came out. Yeah, yeah. It just went to streaming or where you can watch on there or whatever. It came out in February. So the first one, uh, a lady named Cindy Bond, who is a movie producer, she approached, took me and Rickle to lunch in Nashville, and said she was trying to find the most, she was asking around what the most famous Christian song was and if there was a story. Because our thought was if this song had done so well for so long, it would automatically be promote this movie. Like it already has, you know, and so somebody told her about a song called Shout to the Lord, and then I can only imagine worth the time. And apparently Shout to the Lord didn't have a story because we were second. But I told her about my dad and stuff, and by the end, she was like, I want to make this movie. And we thought she was nuts. Like, I have no nothing, know nothing about movies, nor would think anyone would care. And all I knew is that back then she would uh back, well, anytime you want to tell, like, if I want to make a movie about your life, I'd have to buy your life rights, which is usually like it may be a couple of thousand dollars every year, give that gives them a chance to get something going. If the year expires and you go, hey man, I'm almost there. Here's another two grand. I'm gonna keep working. So, and it was funny because back then I was like, oh, that's cool. I can buy some shoes or something, you know. And so if she wants to say yes, because we knew it would never happen, but she wants to waste her money. And so for about six to seven years, we get a check. I was like, man, we are we are conning this lady, is what it felt like. Like if she keeps saying, I'm trying. And then all of a sudden, uh, she finds the right script and the right directors, and uh, and they make this independent film that Lionsgate picks up at the very last minute, and it did 84 million in the box office.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Holy smokes!

SPEAKER_01 36:23

And yeah, it was us and Black Panther and Tomb Raider were top three back, and we would go back and forth. It's 2017.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Because I saw 2018 on the sequel, the guy doing the who's the star of the sequel?

Even If, Depression, Child Diabetes

SPEAKER_01 36:37

John, oh, that's Milo Ventimin. Milo, that's yeah, yeah, yeah. And so John Michael Finley's the guy that plays me, and he was a lead, he was John Valjean on Le Miz on Broadway when we found him. So he played me in the first one, and the first one is my childhood with my dad and his transformation. Like it ends with him passing. He passes away, and then I end up writing the song. Like the grandma scene happens? Uh uh well, sort of. They yes, kind of. They they try to cram your whole life into two hours, and so yeah, it's a little, you know, they it's it's all condensed, it's the condensed version. And uh, but yeah, it ends with um with the song running up the charts and it, you know, the credits roll, and it's like it's the biggest song ever. So then um we I we have another song called Even If, which is our second biggest song of our career, and it's it's it's been huge for us. And um, the same lady, Cindy Bond, fell in love with the song, and so she was hoping to make a movie, not of my life, but a movie just using the song. Like maybe we can find some kind of fan mail, some story. Let's just do something. And uh that was in right after the first movie, like 2019. And so I started saying no all through the pandemic, and um, until about probably two years ago, I finally was so tired of her calling because she's a bulldog man. And I said, you know, if you find the right writer, maybe they can come up with something. I'm open to that. So she got the writer that co-wrote the first one, did a movie called Jesus Revolution, and I got with him, and we were reluctantly like, okay, we can just say we met, tell her it didn't work out. And then at the very end, he was like, Well, how did the song come about? So I told him how my oldest son was diagnosed with juvenile diabetes when he was two, and um, and a lot of terror, just 2004 is when that happened, and a lot of tragic things happened in my life in that season. At the height of our career, it was like the lowest point in my life.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

And um, and um just loved ones that passed away and stuff, and then my son's diabetes, which at the time seemed trivial compared to the people that have died, right? But this chronic illness is ultimately what just kept him, you know, every meal. Like that dude's had over 60,000 shots in his lifetime because every time food goes in his mouth, a needle goes in his body. Right. And that thing that didn't seem big is the one that was the biggest of them all, because you can grieve and time will heal over a loved one, but this thing is a reminder every meal. And so I was in a depression for and you don't want to see your kid. Oh man, when they say you can't fix your kid, it it levels you. Yeah. So from this from 2004, uh from the age of two to about 15 or 16, I was in the deep depression. Uh uh and and so one of those days was um I just we had a bad endocrine knowledge appointment that just was a horrible moment, and just because his levels were out of control, and I had a writing session to go to afterwards with a guy named Tim Timmins, who's one of my best friends. And by the time I got there, I just snapped, like everything, like the levee broke, and I we didn't write anything. I was just griping about it. I'm tired of being considered a professional Christian, like I don't have it all together. I'm tired of people thinking that I do, and and how it was just weighing on me, and and and the song, even if the whole idea of that song is like the chorus is I know you're able, I know you can save through the fire with your mighty hand, but even if you don't, my hope is in is you alone. Still, the idea is like when the prayer is not answered, when it goes wrong, do we still trust in him? And that's where that song came from. And so when I I ended up didn't write that day, I left, and then Tim sent me a voice, texted me, and said, Hey, I've been trying to write that song for years because Tim has been he's he right now he's he was given five years to live with cancer 25 years ago. Like, and that was so he had been wrestling the same thing. He has this weird, rare blood disease cancer that they're like, You may die tomorrow, you may live to your 100. Good luck. You know, it's that's how he lives. So uh I'm telling this story to Brent, the writer, screenwriter. He's in tears. He's like, This is the movie. And so Milo Ventamilla plays Tim Timmins, my buddy in the movie. And so he's kind of the new character. And so John Finley's still playing me. And um, and then my it's and it's that story, and it's a story of my relationship with my son, Sam, who during that time, like I would play around and wrestle with my other kids, but with him, I was a doctor. I was like, I was trying to keep him alive. Right. And I never knew from his perspective, he was like, You were the worst, dude. He goes, there was no fun, like you know, and and I'm like, you know, and I'm like, I'm so sorry. Like, I didn't, you know, you know, between the depression and just trying to, you know, make sure he was on time, getting his shots and everything, I didn't know the strain it had on him, which I do love now. Making the movie and him being by my side as an adult, he was like, Man, he's like, young Sam said a lot of terrible things. You were right. And I was like, Yeah, say that again. Say it to you. Uh-huh. Yeah, wherever it was. You were on the set of the movie? Yeah, yeah. I was a producer on the movie. And so in my first movie too? Uh the first movie, I was like a consultant, but this one I was a producer. Were you on the set of the first movie? Uh yeah, uh for a couple of weeks. Dennis Quaid played my dad. And so he was one of the last ones to film. And so for those two weeks he was there, I was able to, because I was on tour most of the time, but I was able to go out there when he was doing his parts.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

And in the first movie, are are there uh obviously abusive scenes? Yeah, there are. Is it hard to watch?

SPEAKER_01 41:48

It was. It was nobody really prepares you for what it's like to go out there. And so when we flew out, it was filmed in Oklahoma City. I went out there and I got to set, and they were like, hey, we'll introduce you to Dennis after we shoot this scene. Just sit tight. And the first scene was when he goes in the hospital and he's told he has cancer for the first time. And you would think it's not a big deal. We're pretending. And even though it's Dennis, he had my dad's work shirt with Millard across the chest, and and they're telling him, and it wrecked me. Like I didn't didn't expect it. So I had to get up and I literally got my rental car and just drove around until they told me they were done. And I was like, I don't even didn't even know how to describe how that made me feel. Like, what in the world? It's all it's surreal, bro. It's not Dennis' plate anymore, it's my dad. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 42:29

That's what it felt like.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Yeah. And and it's like, and he it just it was just revisiting it all. It's hard enough to talk about it sometimes, but then uh to portray it. And and so same thing with one of the scenes where he breaks a plate over my head at the breakfast table and we get in this huge fight. And I was there that in fact, I think that might have been the next scene. They were like, all clear, come back. Now we're gonna break a plate on your head. I was like, oh my God.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

And so he's hey, he's breaking the plate wrong. Yeah, I was like, I'm doing this on purpose.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Like, like where are the fun scenes? And that one, I I was we're in the when you're watching the scene, we're around the corner. Everybody in the house is around the corner looking on a monitor. And when he broke the plate on his head the first time, like I was I made some noise. I was crying so hard that I think I made an and I was afraid I was gonna ruin the take. And so, and I was like, Did anybody hear that? Like, no, and it was it was really hard. And Dennis was really kind, he understood, and every take when it was over, he'd run to me and was like, Are you okay? And he really kind of walked me through it. It was really cool, and um, but yeah, that was the hardest part. There's a lot of inaccuracies of like just compressing the storyline, but they we were very I wanted the the abuse scenes and the redemption scenes to be as accurate as I can remember because if the abuse scenes are as real as I can recall, then the redemption story is that much stronger.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

So then your brother sees the complete movie for the first time. He wasn't on the set to see if the and he wasn't living at home anymore.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

So he sees this movie, and he's like, There's no way it was never like that. And I was like, dude, I said, I don't know. We've ever talked about what it was like once you left. But he was like, I think you're just trying to sell tickets. And I was like, I don't, I wish you knew there's not enough tickets in the world. You don't need to sell tickets. Yeah. If it's like this is this would not be worth it. Cause it was so like I'm glad it happened. If I'd have known how hard it had been while filming it, like I was full of regret. Like, this is harder than I ever imagined. No pun intended. Because just seeing that stuff. But the second it's people in the audience, the theater started seeing it, and we started watching it with crowds and the redemption story, like, man, we've had the craziest stories of people that dads that wouldn't leave the theater until they get their son on the phone. Sons that wouldn't leave the theater until they get their dad on the phone. Dude, we have a voicemail, it's the best. And uh the our management office got a call from a Louisiana judge and this juvenile delinquent judge or whatever called and said, I hope I get it right, but she goes, There's this kid who who's been kicked out of his home, his parents are deadbeats, and he's been in and out of the system over and over and over. And anytime he goes to trial, a guardian has to show up. And she goes, We've had to reschedule because half the time the parents won't even the dad, they're divorced, but no one will come in his defense. And they finally kind of got the dad to show up. And they're going at it and dogging each other and they hate each other. And she for some reason saw that that movie's playing in the local theater, and she made them like dismiss, like put the trial on hold and make the two of them go watch our movie. And she goes, and we'll adjourn, we'll come back when it's done. And she was like, and she said in the voicemail, I don't even think I can do that. And I'll probably get in trouble if anybody knows my name or whatever. I'll get disbarred or whatever that is. So they went and they came back, and according to her, like, I mean, in tears, arm in arm. And we're like, and like the dad was full of so much regret, and they were talking and stuff to the point to where I think that she ended up she released him in his custody. I know we we met her finally at a show, uh, I don't remember how long it was afterwards, and she said they were still doing well. Wow. I don't know what that's been years, but some crazy stories like that.

Comics, Producing, And New Bets

SPEAKER_00 46:05

Have you looked at doing other producing other movies?

SPEAKER_01 46:08

Um, yes. Yeah. You got the Hollywood blog a little bit? Uh I I yeah, I did. I think just being a storyteller and it's the reason I write songs, I became fascinated with how they do it. And uh and and just enough people that thought I had more involvement in the first movie than I did were like, what other stories do you have? Right. And um, and so like it wasn't my intentions, but and I don't nothing to show for it yet, but there's some some like like a comic. I used to be a comic book nerd, and so I'd worked on something since I was in college that was no one would ever see. It was like it's just a hobby. And certain people have caught wind of that, and they're like, hey, we we seriously want to see a screen, a script written. So it's not, yeah, it's just like Marvel. Well, I don't know, I don't know what that was. It's kind of people that are like like not competing against Marvel, but it's like the first time they heard about it, Marvel, the end game was happening, and they're like, no, to make a hero film that's not Marvel is like a death sentence. Yeah, and it's always it's not a no, it's just a not yet. And so just recently it came back around now that the you know the they've kind of lost their grip on all of that, and and and there's been this weird interest of like, hey, we we we we want to see this through. So there's little things that I like I know it sounds weird that I'm it feels like I stumbled into it. There was no like, here's my game plan, I have this, this, and this. Somebody asked, and kind of like you saying, I'm gonna start saying yes. Like normally, if they said do you have anything, I would say no, I'd be too embarrassed. I'm like, well, actually, I have this. And they're like, All right, let's go. So I've learned with the second movie, the door opens a little bit. So I'm just trying to step through it. So we'll see.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

When you say you like comics, do you have you been following the the boys? Do you like the boys?

Star Wars Detour And Nerd Joy

SPEAKER_01 47:47

Yeah, I the boys was the that was the in fact, it's funny because that was the first one that broke the Marvel barrier, like that. And that was about my first pitch was right before the boys launched. Really? And then and uh the guy that was on my side, Lionsgate, this guy he passed away since named Jason Constantine. He's responsible for the John Wick movies and the uh expendables and stuff like that. He was a huge fan of us, and he's the one that encouraged me to do that first pitch. And he was the first one to go, hey, I think the boys are gonna break this little marvel ceiling that's happening. Yeah, so just hang in there. And then he passed away not long ago, but uh, but he's the one that kind of encouraged me to keep going. Because I was like, I'm a grown man talking about comic books. This is ridiculous. He was a lot of them. That's what he said. He goes, he goes, You got to start somewhere. You know, it's you you have nothing until you don't. What are some of the comics you for back in the day that you'd get? Man, I was big, I was a big Green Lantern fan. Um, I I was I probably leaned more on the DC than Marvel. Like, I like Spider-Man and Spider-Man. I love Spider-Man. I do too. Uh I just for some reason, I don't know why, but back then, when I was a kid, being 53, like Justice League was cooler than the Spider-Man stuff, you know. And and then when Marvel kicked in, I'm having kids of my own, like we became obsessed. I I I still love I just love science fiction. What about Star Wars? Uh, dude, that's a whole different level. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

Dude, Star Wars is a jam, man. So I have three, I'm the Star Wars guy. Oh, I'm a nut. I took my kid, one of the I like I cry when I'm in the movies with my kids, and a long time ago in a galaxy of Far Farade pops up, I'm like, oh whoa. Yeah. And then my kids make fun of me because when uh I'm not ruining anything, but I was pissed that Han Solo died. Oh, me too. I was pissed. I even tweeted George Lucas. I was so furious. And then I wasn't that bad. And then the next movie when they had like the the this like he came back and visited Anakin, I was balling my brains out. My kids are like this. So now they make fun of me all the time for crying. So were you ticked the way Luke Skywalker died?

SPEAKER_01 49:47

Or how'd you do with that? The last did I? I was indifferent. I just like it wasn't it wasn't as powerful to me as the. No, it wasn't, but I was like, I just thought there'd be more to it. I've actually appreciated more looking back. At the time, I was like, yeah, I'm I've I have a love hatership with that specific movie. Like it's some of the beautiful scenes I've ever seen are in that movie. Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

Have you started watching Darth Maul, the one that just came out two days ago? No, I just saw it post, I haven't seen it yet. It's alright, there's two episodes. It's pretty insane.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

So what's cool about that, when I was five, yeah, five, my dad took me to a drive-in to see the new hope. Wow. And it's got to be one of my earliest memories. I remember it vividly. Well, then when my first my youngest, Sam, was couldn't be much older, Phantom Menace came out. So that got to be our movie. And then my youngest was about the same age with Force Awakens. And so I got to like three different times. Like it was so rad. Now, my middle son, he got lost, but otherwise. I think he got some weird Lord of the Rings or something. Who knows? I never got into Lord of the Rings. I tried, but yeah, it's too many people dressed up like elves in the crowd. I don't like it. But they're Star Wars, they're normal, they're fine.

Writing Process And The Number One Moment

SPEAKER_00 50:52

When you write a song, though, like when you wrote, when you wrote uh Imagine, is it like yellow pad piece of paper or is it a computer?

SPEAKER_01 50:59

That one is on the back of a of a utility bill in the envelope it came in.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

Are you still?

SPEAKER_01 51:04

In fact, it's like in a they just put it in some weird museum in Nashville.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

Is it really?

SPEAKER_01 51:08

Yeah, yeah. And I just I I've had it the whole time, but I just found it. But it's oh, I forgot. I know what I was gonna tell you. Speak, I'm sorry, but yes, it was on the back of a bill, but that I meant to tell you, sorry, I just realized. When my dad had gave me the$600 a month, you'll love this. So we have Sam. Um, my he was born January 4th. And so we, you know, we're in the hospital a few days, it's time to go home. And when I go home, I we released Imagine to Radio like right in October, November of the year before. And then the charts freeze for Christmas music, right? I'm just I don't know if it's uh that way in pop music, but you go to the Christmas format, so the radio charts will freeze until the Christmas season's over. So if we were at number 10 in November, you stay number 10 until January when we get past the Christmas stuff. That makes sense. So I don't know where we were before because I was having a baby, so I just didn't pay attention. And and so um, we go home, I have an interview with a guy named John Rivers on some radio station, and I'm I'm holding my newborn because my office is now his room. And so I have a phone set up in there. So I'm sitting in the baby room about to interview him, holding Sam, and while I'm on hold, my wife walks up and goes, It's your dad's last check. Like our last of 10 years. Whoa. And I'm like, and then we're not making much, and I'm like, that's$600 gone in a month. That's a dent. And I've got a kid, and I never forget like the panic of I'm holding this kid that no one told me what to do with him. My check's gone, and I'm on hold. And the guy comes on and he's like, hey man, let me be the first to congratulate you. Imagine went number one. And I start sobbing uncontrollably, like more than someone should cry for their song on number one. Like it was bad, and I'm and he has no clue, and I'm holding a baby in a chair. He's like, Are you okay? Like, you don't understand, man. You don't understand, you're my new best friend. And um, but I'm never yeah, I think it was either that or he said it right before we went live. I don't remember. Oh my gosh. But he became a dear friend. I was able to explain to him, and then he was crying. And and and yeah, talking about that's when everything changed. Like, you know, I'd never seen a royalty check that much before then. But yeah, everything had changed. And now you're like selling out for yeah, and what's so great is when my dad told me, which I love, he said, Hey, I'm gonna do the 10 years because I know you'll spend it the second you get it. And he goes, And I don't know what happens then, but just know I'll always be taking care of you. And that's why I cried because I'm like the last check, and then my life financially and every other way changed because of my dad.

CTE, Mom's Perspective, Books, Wrap

SPEAKER_00 53:42

Dude, that's so crazy. It is crazy. Yeah, and and I want to jump back to a new hope of the driving theater because I was gonna ask you, there's so there's good memories too.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, my yeah, my and so the thing about my dad that uh is my dad played football out of face mask most of his life. You know that whole um that whole CTE stuff, yeah. It wasn't a thing back then. Right. And so the same doctor that delivered me was the same doctor that was with me and my dad when he died, like as a family doctor, and he's the one that called me and said, Hey, he and actually he just passed away. But he called me when the CT became a big deal. Like Will Smith did that movie and all stuff, and he goes, I 100% think it's what your dad had. Because when my dad finished playing football after SMU, he was a flagman at the he was flagging traffic at construction, he got hit by a diesel and was like launched like 50 feet in the air or something like that. Never broke a bone, but he was in a coma for three months. This is before I was born.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

Is this in the movie?

SPEAKER_01 54:35

No, no, it's you know, in uh he was a coma for three months. And when he woke up, my mom said he was the biggest teddy bear. She would always say that him and I were very similar. But when he woke up from that coma, he was a monster. Like they said it took everybody in the hospital to hold him down because he was so strong. He was an offensive lineman, all American. They had to strap him in, and they were like, and she goes, I I sent my husband to the hospital and I came home with a monster and he was never the same. Wow. And so my doctor swears, he goes, That's what happened to your dad. He goes, I have no doubt. Now, how the transformation, like the cancer and all that stuff, and how he changed, other than a miracle, I don't know how to explain that, but you know, but he was a different person. But yes, there were a lot of memories, like it might before my brother moved, I would hear my mom and dad fighting. My dad never laid a finger on my mom, but he would like if she loved this couch, instead of doing something to her, he would just break this couch in half and he was capable of doing it. Like he would break things that are precious to her but never hit her. Is she still around? Uh she passed away two years ago. Oh wow. And so um, but I was the first, other than spankings, I was the first one in seventh grade when it was just me and him and where he started taking swings at me and stuff. What did your mom think of the song in the movie? My mom was the one that I thought, because in the movie, um this this there's a scene where mom uh and it's it's pretty much what happened. My mom tucked me in, and then I came home from school and moving vans had left and my mom left and left me with my dad. That was my perspective. When they asked me about in the movie, when they interviewed me, that's my perspective as a kid. Now I and and I was able to write a book and explain what had actually happened, and I didn't know until later in life, like when she was able to explain it. She said, Um I knew I had to leave, I was afraid of my life. And she goes, All of our family lived there. And she kind of got back then in the 70s, if there was a divorce, it didn't matter how bad the husband was, the wife would take the blame for whatever reason. Like, why you had a good thing going? I know it sounds awful, but it was very chauvinistic. And and uh the whole family convinced her to not separate the kids because she was gonna take me because and because my dad adored my older brother. And she kind of got bullied into leaving us because they thought she was one the reason that messed up the marriage. They had been divorced for a while, and then she was uh uh about to remarry for the first time, and he was gonna live in San Antonio. And that's when they were like, they thought you're you may be back. Let's see, let me think. That was her third husband. She'd married once with an abusive guy that was married for like six months, broke her arm, and stuff like that. And then the third guy, everyone at this point thought, this is not gonna last long. Go do whatever you gotta do, but leave the kids here. That was their mentality. And so she knew that if she tried to move out, move the stuff, because there was stuff there still, because she couldn't afford it. And and if she was gonna move that stuff out with him there, it was gonna be a bad scene. And so she decided to tuck me in and she said all the I love you's and all this kind of stuff. She may even try to explain to me what's happening, but I was falling asleep from what she said. And so it was weird that she was at my dad's house tucking me in. And then while I was at school, the movers moved all their stuff, and when the bus dropped me off, they're leaving with all the stuff, half the house is gone, and I remember screaming down the road, like, take me, take me. Oh my gosh. And it wasn't until my mom for years thought we discussed this the night before. I was like, uh, I was a I was a fourth grade. I don't even know what how old I'd have been by the time. And you just assumed that was good. And and so in the movies, like, how did you feel? I said, This is what it felt like, so that's what's in the movie. So I'd like I had to go to my mom's house and show her this movie that was in the worst light possible. And I sat with her alone, I showed it to her, and I knew it was gonna kill her, and she was in tears. But she goes, you know what? That's pretty much how it happened. And and she was and she was my biggest fan, and she was very supportive. She goes, I it's it's painful to see, but if it helps somebody else, then tell the story.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

And she stayed married how long to the third guy?

SPEAKER_01 58:34

She stayed married to the third guy for 20 something years until he passed away. Do they have kids? Uh no, no, no. This is yeah. Uh so from that was like 82, they got married, and he passed away like in right before I got married, like in in the mid-90s, a little over 20 years. No, what? No, it'd be 82, 92. No, no, it was longer than that. They were married for maybe just under 20 years. But it was you friends with anybody from the movies?

SPEAKER_00 58:59

Uh how do you mean? Like the actors or like now things have happened. Have you made friends like any famous actor like Al Pacino texts you, man, and he's great?

SPEAKER_01 59:08

Uh well, uh, not directly. There's been some that like um like uh with a director, Annie Irwin, he directed the movie and we become good friends. Like there's been moments I've gone to his office and like he's trying to do a thing with Chris Pratt, and he's in the car with his kids in face. I was like, hey kids, kids, that's Mr. Millard from Imagine. I was like, oh shoot, what just happened? Like that's the only time I've ever seen him, and things like that. But like Milo's become an incredibly dear friend, and we stay in touch, and we have a thread called the Barts versus the Tim's, where it's the four of us that's it keep ragging on each other, and yeah, that's been really cool. The relationships that we've been able to make, you know, through that, and Sophie Skelton, who's from Outlander, uh, she played my wife in the movie, and so we've remained good friends, and it's cool. It's it's uh it was a good cast, man. Trace Atkins played Brickle, and then you can see why.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

Does Brickle have other uh other artists besides you guys?

SPEAKER_01 59:59

Yeah, he oh, he's had plenty. Audio adrenaline, switchfoot, uh oh, switchfoot. Yeah, uh Phil Wickham. He's had he's over the years, we've kind of made him get rid of all of them except for us, though. But he's been our manager since day one.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

Is there an only command I can only imagine three?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

No, no, I didn't written that song either. So it better be in space and a comedy because I've I have no more sad stories to tell.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

Did you see uh um Oh my gosh, did wrote the um Project Hail Mary? Oh, dude, I saw it twice. Did you really? So good. Right? Did you like it? I did, I liked it. I was my my emotions of when I first met Rock, I'm like, come on, and then I'm in love with Rock.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

Dude, and no CG and it's an actual puppet. Yeah, yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah, it's all real. Like that like he acted in front of that puppet the entire time. And and there's no there's no CG at all. Like all the space scenes are made. I had no idea what that makes me like it more. Oh, dude, like when he goes up and they go to the infrared and all of space is that pink, yeah, they flip the lights and they have this massive wall with these holes that it's lights are shooting through, like it's all made. It's insane. And Rocky, the voice of Rocky, when they're going through all of those voices, that was added in because they couldn't find a voice, and that's the puppeteer's actual voice they rehearsed with. And and Gosling was like, I love that voice so much that they kept him as the voice. That's the puppeteer's voice. Whoa. How cool is that, man? That's why I went and saw it a second time because I read all that. It was like, I gotta check it out again. Oh good. I loved it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

Man, that's cool that I did that for you, and you're like part of Hollywood.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

Oh, yeah. You should wrote a book too. Uh well, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:38

As you can see, I'm unprepared.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

Renaissance, man, really. I've read like two books in my life and they're Judy Bloom, so it's not that big a deal. Me too.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:46

Are you their goddess me, Margaret?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

That's the one that I wrote. I got Tales of Fourth Grade and I gotta get to that one. And Ramona the Brain or whatever. But about my sister's books. Are you very goddess? It's me, Margaret. Very impactful. Um, no, I during the first movie, because of stories like my mom, somebody encouraged me to write a book to explain in more detail what's not in the movie. And it was so it's kind of like a companion, like you know, because I'm always a guy, if I'm watching a true story, I want to Google more about it immediately.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:17

So that's why we wrote the book, and it was really therapeutic to do. So when the second movie came about, we're like, yeah, we're gonna do this again. And it's just reading the script and going, I know why they did it, but there's so much meat they left on the road. Oh, they have to, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it was fun to write a book to kind of explain in more detail.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:32

That's very cool. In fact, speaking of Judy Bloom, uh, I remember so my sister had the Judy Bloom books, and then one day my mom had a Judy Bloom book. Do you know that book? It's called Wifey. No, very adult material. Really? Yeah, I was like 12 sinking out in the bag. It's really a Judy Bloom book. It's a Judy Bloom and it's dirty. Judy Bloom after dark, all right? Hey, thanks for coming on my podcast, man. Gosh, thanks for having me. Okay, so welcome to our podcast. This is a little bit different today because this podcast is a spin-off of our radio show.